TravelTalkOnline Forums Travel and Vacation Forums British Virgin Islands Insurance and Salvage

Hi all,

I recently watched a YT video from The Wandering Hillbilly. Many of you are familiar with him and his grounding incident back in February or March of this year. He was roundly eviscerated here for tying up to an unauthorized ball in a Northerly swell condition. I know there are strong opinions on the whole episode but don't want to re-hash that.

In his most recent video, he explains that due to insurance issues and salvage claims, he's walking away from the boat - giving his boat to the salvor and ending up with nothing.

The primary issue seems to be that his insurance company denied his claim - or maybe even cancelled his policy - it's hard to tell. Therefore, he had to battle the salvor himself and contest their 1) assessed value of the boat and 2) their claim of a payment of 30% of that value.

He has said that a video about the insurance issue is coming so maybe this will all be explained but I'm curious how this could happen.

Could they be denying his claim by saying he was negligent? Would they get down into the details of whether he should have taken that particular ball and/or whether he should have moored there in those conditions? If so, how is that worded in a policy? Is there some kind of "good seamanship" component of the policy that they can say was violated

He also said that while salvors typically charge between 10 and 20% of the value of the salvaged boat, these guys were claiming 30%. Additionally, their own surveyor assessed the boat at $1.9M whereas his surveyor put it at closer to $500k. What little I know about salvage is that everything is tilted massively towards them. I'm sure there are arguments to support this as well as against.

To current boat owners - are you concerned about this kind of risk?

Again, I don't want to have this turn into bashing this particular guy - I'd like to just talk about the circumstances and considerations for a boat owner in general with regard to insurance and salvage. Pretend that this is a hypothetical question if that helps.

I watched this video and thought it was very measured and frank and I believe his motivation in alerting others to the pitfalls of learning about salvage after the fact. I thought his decision to give them the boat was a reasonable one given the situation. Probably would have been even better if he'd done it before shipping to FLA.

I don't know that I'm up on salvage law myself, but I'm sure it is a big risk especially if there is no insurance. I'm willing to bet when the insurance company pays the salvage bill it looks a little different. I've often read that you should throw the other boat your line when towing, not accept their tow line... no doubt there are bad surprises and pitfalls in these aged laws.

He did complain at one point that the insurance company sent someone out and they never looked at his boat but went out to look at the mooring balls.

Don’t forget that the boat had an inoperative steering system. Putting that in a video might not be helping his cause.

GeorgeC1 makes a good point. If one wants to view this as a hypothetical the Hillbilly’s video essentially stating “No Steering, No Problem”, is a major component. There is the salvage issue on one side, but negligence and lack of seamanship were also major components of the insurance company’s decision. Many predicted the Hillbilly might be denied. I’m a retired prosecutor and have little in-depth knowledge of Admiralty Law. However, I know salvage law favors the salvager and the law is quite nuanced.

I think the question being asked is where is the language in the insurance policy that spells out why a claim would be denied? Does it state ‘seamanship’? That’s a slippery slope and impossible to define. We see a lot of issues with charter yacht accidents. Are the charter company’s insurance, or the charter boat owner’s insurance denying all those claims? I’d like to know what is happening with those claims.

My guess as to claim being denied would be "failure to maintain the property". He went out without steerage (posting this) and went on an unauthorized mooring ball. I think this is why the insurance company went to see the mooring ball without checking the boat per him. I saw the video and assume if he or his counsel thought he had any case against the insurance company they would have done so since it is a much bigger number. If the insurance company paid the claim they would have dealt with the salvage company instead of him. It will be interesting to see his video about the insurance company....

As a charterer it is important to note and read the terms to include the red lined areas. I only read them first when our trips were cancelled due to Irma and Marie. On another thread we discussed Moorings new language about these areas and if you go there you are on the hook...

I'm thinking it would be a negligence clause.

Interesting discussion. Another case study right now is the $3 million cat that's been on the reef for over a month at Flamenco Beach in Culebra. The Coast Guard took over since the owner didn't have the resources. USCG tapped into the Oil Spill Liability Trust Fund (OSLTF) to pay for the response. Salvage company is now mobilizing a 400 ton barge crane from Baltimore to lift it off. I read an article that says under the OSLTF, the costs of the federal response can be recouped from the owner.

https://www.news.uscg.mil/Press-Rel...ded-sailing-vessel-from-reef-off-flamen/

Hypothetically, if you "squat" a mooring, with no idea what it was designed for or how it has been maintained, then how can you expect your insurance to pay when the mooring fails? That is one benefit of the BoatyBall moorings: they are inspected, maintained and insured. It would be much harder for your insurance to deny the claim.

The more interesting question is if you anchor. How would your insurance determine if you anchored properly. Would you be in a stronger position anchoring poorly than squatting a defective mooring?

I think leaving the vessel in well documented poor conditions on a private uninsured ball and posting videos highlighting his hubris did him in. Dude still cant admit he made a mistake.

For example the Navigare cat that went into the rocks off a mooring at the Baths. I believe there was a red flag warning that day. Is charter boat owner’s insurance denied? That would be a Big Yikes

It’s not denied in that situation. Most charter companies are under group policies written for commercial activities.

I assume in the Navigare case the deductible reduction agreement is voided. So the charterer is on the hook for the full insurance deductible, the 1-2% of hull value, but otherwise that's it?

Matt - I could be wrong but I think that boat is a total
loss. And this was clearly gross negligence which CAN void claims. Collecting sizable resources from a charterer is unlikely and would happen (if it eventually did), years in the future. Has me questioning my sanity having a boat in charter, especially with all the crap you read on charger chat……..

That's a good point. Where do FCFS balls fall in this spectrum? I (the charterer) don't really know who owns them or maintains them or what they are rated for. They have somewhat of a standard marking but what does that convey really?

There is no insurance or guarantee with any mooring. It is always a judgment call.

True. For sure. But Boaty ball advertising that theirs are on a scheduled maintenance program and only outfitted by one company would give a little extra in the “I acted prudently” And less in the “negligence”

Along the same lines, if your charter company provides a list or map of moorings, and you use one of those, then that would probably work in your favor. Of course if there's a red flag or some other warning, you would be expected to heed that.

Totally agree... the same basic good decisions that should be exercised to keep boat and crew safe will also be easier to defend if bad things do happen.

I just thought it was worth emphasizing that no-one is going to accept liability for your boat if their mooring fails.

I think you guys are way overthinking this with charter boats. In 30 years I have never heard of a claim denied from damage on charter.

So if the claim is not denied by insurance, as George says, what is the charterer on the hook for, the full deductible? What does the salvor get?

The charter companies have agreements with the salvage companies. If they tried to overcharge the charter companies they would not get additional business and charter boats are the bulk of their business. I suspect virtually every charter salvage is at a pre determined cost.

The question isn't whether the mooring owner will insure you, it's whether YOUR insurance will cover you when you are on someone's ball and it breaks. On one end, there's Joe-blow ball in front of some restaurant that you'd apparently be clearly risking your insurance coverage by taking and on the other, Boaty Balls that have at least some expectation of maintenance and safety.

It doesn't sound like anyone knows what their insurance will cover and potentially totally arbitrary. Relying on your charter company listing mooring locations on sample itineraries as some sort of protection against denied insurance or deductible claims seems risky. As we've discussed elsewhere, The Moorings lists Anegada as a wonderful place to visit on your trip but red-lines (says you are not covered in) the anchorage.

@GeorgeC1 - in 30 years you've never heard of a claim denial; can you describe some of the claims that you've heard about that were honored? I'm just curious about the scope of the claims. A broken bow pulpit from hitting the dock is one thing. A hole in the hull from hitting a reef is another.

There was an earlier comment that said BB moorings were "inspected, maintained and insured"... Hopefully two out of three but I wanted to point out that none of the moorings are insured.

There does seem to be some confusion on boatyball. They are no different than any other overnight balls in the BVI with the exception of the BEYC balls. Boatyball and all the other overnight balls are all moor secure balls placed and maintained by them. There is nothing special about boatyball.

George, not every private ball owner is obligated to use MoorSeacure, although they may. There are balls that do not have regular maintenance.

Good point. Moor Seacure's reputation on the line is probably a major reason that we don't see far more mooring failures.

Has anyone considered the possibility that the insurance company might not have the resources to pay any claims?

Warren -

Per the hillbilly's video from a few weeks ago, he was insured by ION, which is owned by HUB International. Per a quick google search, as of late 2023 HUB International had a valuation of $23 billion with annual revenues of $3.7 billion, so I don't think cash was an issue. In my opinion I would bet the reason the insurance company walked away was because of the social media post displaying the recklessness that caused the loss.

Those who follow Florida's property insurance market know that insurance companies can and do go belly-up. Warren's point is fair, if likely not in play here.

It is also true that insurance companies expect their policyholders to abide by the terms of the policy. They will deny your fire claim if you have unpermitted work done by an unlicensed electrician.

The video probably didn't help, but I expect any big claim is investigated before payout.