TravelTalkOnline Forums Travel and Vacation Forums British Virgin Islands Bareboat problems....am I crazy?

We recently rented from Horizon. Our second time with them first time was good,not great. This time we had these issues: fuel gage and wind gauge not working. Water not working properly. Alarms going off several times at night for no reason. Problems with AC, cabins over 89 degrees. I feel we shouldn't have had so many issues as it made us lose confidence in the boat. Are these normal issues? It made a usually relaxed crew on edge.

Not normal in my experience! Were they responsive in dealing with the issues as you raised them?

I can say yes many of these issues are common. I know I have had all these issues one time or another and many at the same time. A/C and/or genny are very susceptible to breakdown. Not sure if your A/C issue include a genny but even on shore power I've had A/C units freeze up. I can't begin to tell you how many times the wind meter was inoperable. This is an item that typically requires a trip to the top of the mast. Fuel gauge seems more time than not this gauge is inaccurate or again not working and for a 7-10 day charter it wouldn't bother me as long as I was sure the tank was topped off prior to departure, especially if you are running a genny or on a power boat. Maybe more important if you are on a power boat. Alarms - I guess if this was an alarm for taking on water it would make me anxious. I recently had a boat that the battery alarm would go off every night around 3 am notifying that the house battery is low. Realized a few days and sleepless nights later that the level was set too high. All in all I would guess the biggest issue is A/C because you specifically picked that option and I can relate to a hot night sleeping in a marina. I guess the real question is did Horizon address all the issues? Many times these boats when they start getting some age on them are just constantly breakdown and many of those issues might go unnoticed unless recorded by the last group to charter the boat. I wouldn't be too upset, this time next year you will be telling stories about this trip. Every charter company has their demons but overall do a pretty good job an keeping these boats going. Especially since not every charter group treats this boat as their own. You're still in the Islands on a boat laughing at everyone back in the states.

I have had all of those problems at one time or another but never all at one time. I would not have left the dock with an inoperable anemometer.

They're all common but not all at once. I think a lot of times, problems go unreported to the charter company because people think they'll be held responsible for "breaking" something.

All normal operating issues for boats. All those issues are compounded by the BVI charter environment. The BVI boats and electronics are exposed to salt and heat 24/7/365 in some cases for years with limited fresh water to clear the salts daily. Many of the boats are used far more than any were ever designed to be used. Some boats are designed, built, and outfitted more to be sold to the inexperienced budget buyers at the boat shows. Not all boats in the charter boats are created equal not even close. Same with the operators. Age of the weak boats and weakly outfitted boats will make a big difference. Even when everything is done well. Small critters even a single squid can stop the AC cooling pumps in their tracks. In your case previous salt water intrusion corroding inferior wiring terminals could have caused all of this along with many more options. None of those issues have anything to do with the core equipment of standing rigging, sails, or steering. Reality those are all normal nuisance issues on many boats. Understanding the fresh water system and some basic troubleshooting ability are good life skills to have. If you are going to rent a boat with AC. Make sure you understand where the cooling pump water is supposed to exit and understand how to clear those lines yourself when it does not. Never be in a rush to get away from the dock, always run all those systems yourself at the dock before you leave, never be in a rush to get away from the dock. In this case none of these issues have anything to do with the vessel itself. All these issues are bolt on nice to have features that are not a part of the design or vessel engineering. The better operators and better boats have redundant fresh water pumps.

As others said above, all are common issues but all at once is unusual. It can still happen. We've had to have a genset worked on twice during a trip. Had the A/C fail and it couldn't be fixed - we were offered another boat, but with only 2 days left and us switching boats for a 2nd trip with another group anyway, we just lived without it.

Never had a broken wind gauge. Would be a problem most trips for us as we've usually been on a cat where you need to know the wind speed.

The real question though is how did they handle it? You should at least get a discount on a future trip at a minimum. Then again, this being your 2nd trip that clearly wasn't great, you may not want to charter with them again?

I snagged the policy below from the Horizons owners website. While I see little value of a fuel gauge on a charter boat and I would never trust one anyway. Troubleshooting a fuel gauge can be hours if not days of work. Any instrument troubleshooting can easily get into the hours if you have the skills, diagnostic tools, and parts available. While wind instruments are nice to play with. There is no need for that tool on any charter boat.

Horizon factors in 15 minutes between charters to do fix anything found between charters. I have never returned a charter yacht with a trouble sheet that anyone could complete in 15 minutes. We always record any issue we find in a simple log and return that log to the base manager.

"Turnarounds: This fee incorporates the labour used to prepare a charter vessel (technical, rigging, shipwright and interior/exterior cleaners) along with chart-briefing and boat-briefing the guests. It also includes the completion of pre-charter and post-charter paperwork and the products used to clean the vessel, plus the Starter Pack and Welcome cocktail placed aboard for the guests. A professional diver inspects and takes video footage of the hull, rudder and keel, between every charter. When an inspection/repair during the turnaround procedure requires more than 15 minutes, it becomes billable and will be itemized on your monthly statement. Hence your monthly statement also serves as a full service history"

- See more at: http://horizonyachtcharters.com/yacht-sales/maximum-income-programme/#sthash.FDYVL0Rp.dpuf

That's not accurate StormJib - On a cat, knowing the wind speed is critical. That is a must have. On a mono, less critical, but still important, not just something to play with.

As far as Horizon factoring in 15 minutes, that's not accurate either. They just don't bill the owner if it only takes 15 minutes, it doesn't mean they only leave 15 minutes between charters to fix stuff.

Agree that I have had almost all of those problems at one time or another but that seems like a lot at once. Regarding the AC/Genset, while I have chartered most of the boats available at this point whenever I do get a new one I always ask at the briefing where every seawater strainer is?? 90% of the time one or more of the units overheats bc it is not getting enough water and it is a very easy fix and the crew is most graeteful.

Maybe some think they cannot leave the dock without a wind gauge. I can look at the open water and tell you how hard the wind is blowing. In light conditions with a fresh haircut I can feel it on the back of my neck. All using the same instincts that lets me know how fast the car I am riding in is traveling. Many have become way too needy of the electronic toys and gadgets. Those Cats are delivered across oceans on their own bottoms. Owners are sailing cats across all the oceans every day. If wind instruments were even close to a must have we would find at least some redundancy built in or at least available. If a puff comes in and you must look at the wind instruments to figure out what to change or do. You are doing it all wrong. For the record I have sailed all the largest multihulls in the charter fleets. The only hassles I see on that list for a 7 day trip. (1) anything that makes the fresh water system inconvenient.(2) The inability to diagnose and correct the alarms at any time. (3) The inability to determine what if anything was wrong with the HVAC system(s). The original writer leaves out many details.

Our boat is meticulously & professionally maintained and is a higher-end, semi-custom yacht with 10,000 miles under her keel at 2 years old. The bottom line: the more stuff a boat has, the more stuff there is to go wrong.

Now, a working water system is pretty critical but the rest: just happens.
We spent several weeks in the islands this winter without wind instruments because the manufacturer had a "bad batch" of circuit boards & had to replace it... More than once. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Tonguea.gif" alt="" /> Fortunately the wind is fairly consistent down there so it's more an annoyance than a problem.

We had an early charter where a bunch of things went wrong & it did put a big damper on our week, but now that we've been owners for a while, the maintenance I realize that's required to keep everything pristine is STAGGERING. (Thank goodness hubby likes to work on it & we have the ability to have everything done professionally when needed)

I agree that the company's response is the most critical factor... (But as far as the fuel gauge, we just motored & ran the generator for a whole wind-free week & barely used any, so as long as you were filled up when you started, that's probably not too important.)

Well not everyone is the seasoned captain you are. There's plenty that need the wind gauge so they know they should reef on a cat. They could check the weather reports, but they aren't always 100% accurate either. In all the boats we've charted, that is one instrument I've never seen broken.

I know exactly ZERO about sailing cats, and just north of zero about sailing monos! And I'm a huge chicken! If there's any question, I like to reef early, and reef much. (Unlike Doug, who seems to reef mostly when he sees the panicked look on my face!)

It's absolutely something that should be working on a charter boat, but my anxiety about squalls taught me very quickly that if you can see one coming, you should reef. No gauge required. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Yikes.gif" alt="" />

Do you think Horizon really does this?

"A professional diver inspects and takes video footage of the hull, rudder and keel, between every charter"

Yes. I have watched them do it.

Things you learn!! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Wink.gif" alt="" /> I have not chartered there. I can say that I have never seen a diver anywhere around the Moorings/Sunsail marina in the water. If they were, I hope they received hazardous duty pay.

What all those gauges do is encourage the crew to have their "heads in the boat". The prudent mariner, helmsman, and trimmer is looking up and out. Or "getting his head out of the boat". If you have a dedicated navigator or tactician let him or her look at those digital readouts or gauges. Otherwise if you find yourself looking down to figure out what to do or see what you are actually doing. I suggest you tape over or turn that stuff off. SuburbanDharma has it right you are on vacation generally with guests of all shapes, sizes, and limits. REEF EARLY, you can always shake it out. The mental handicap that you must have a wind gauge is setting yourself up for disappointment or worse. On the modern boat their are simply too many moving parts, connections, and limited time and parts to promise that ever. See the original posted. A bunch of stuff he or she did not understand and did not need in the first place disrupted the fun. Full Disclosure. I would have fixed that water and determined what was causing those alarms, then determined whether the AC was a basic issue or worth disrupting the crew to rendezvous with the base to let them take the boat apart. Fuel gauges are almost always worthless on most boat. The alarm was most likely a bilge water level reached when the boat was still without the crew or boat moving around during the night. Just a few crew moving around, a wave or heel may be needed to trip a float switch to pump. One trick is before everything is powered down for the night. Manually run all the bilge pumps to fully empty the bilges. That is common and was a real problem on the Moorings 4700. It could also be a carbon dioxide warning with a sealed boat and gen set running. Even if the lights are all on and all the dials moving? How could you ever trust or understand how all that stuff is calibrated anyway.

If you don't reef at the proper wind speeds on a cat, you can break things. On a mono, it will just heel over to relieve the stress.

When I first started charting in the early 80's I never saw it and many bottoms were all scrapped up. More and more operators have been doing that. I have witnessed many putting a guy overboard look as soon as the boat hits the dock. Some with cameras, some without. It is a revenue generator and can make life better for the operators like Horizon who directly bill the owner for any issue. Moorings/Sunsail spread the cost out across all participants and do any repairs directly from the Moorings/Sunsail checkbook.

Yikes! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Yikes.gif" alt="" />
I think you'll know my response to this... <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

When we chartered with Horizon we always had to wait for the hull inspection upon return before we could get our deposit back.

Curious as to why you say this?

Maytrix,

Wind speed it just one part of the very complex equation. That is why I recommend you look at the wind gauge last, if at all. Each boat, sail, angle, sea state, payload stacked on the boat is different. Load breaks things, not wind speed. Learn to feel what the tension is on the trims. One clear signal anyone will see when the loads go up slowing a catamaran down is the leeward hull or ama will push down into the water. You should see and feel the bow pushing down into the sea. You will see the water start to move into the scoop and up the steps.. Dragging the leeward hull is slow on a cat. The more you drag that giant charter cat hull, the greater the loads. Dragging the hull is slow. Get you head out of the boat. Note the leeward hull dragging, the load of trims. Easy something or everything a little bit and see if you feel the boat speed go up or down. Easy the traveler, easy everything to the point you know the boat has slowed. Begin trimming stuff back in until the speed no longer increases. Another way to look at it is. Never put more trim or load on the boat than you need to maintain the speed you want. Dragging a hull and trying to carry the whole ocean with will always create unnecessary loads and wear on the boat you do not want to go back to the dock to fix. Try to stop looking at the gauges and paying much more attention to the leeward hull. That hull will tell you far more sooner than any gauge. Focus on loads, not wind speed. LOADS = DANGER mono, cat, or dock. After a short period paying attention just your hand on the loaded side of the trim will give you an idea of load. Or at least a short crank on the winch should give you that same feedback.

Load issues are not just for multihulls. Scroll through these 15 shots and see how load took this boat apart:

https://www.facebook.com/cseropix/photos...e=3&theater

The loads got so great with the crew weight shifted the compression box supporting the mast exploded. The original load was pushing the bow down. The crew shifted aft to counter that load. The load shifted to straight down the mast onto the mast step and boom the whole world came tumbling down.

Hmmm...wonder if I could use this thread to justify actually getting a wind speed guage installed on my boat? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" /> She's almost 30 years old and never had one. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" />

Because on a cat, there's no heeling, so you need to reef to reduce the load - too much load and you can break something. It can be a problem on a mono as well, but you get more warning.

Stormjib, clearly you failed to see how I said it can be a problem for some and there are varying levels of experience. The average inexperienced charterer would very likely benefit from a working wind gauge so they can look at the wind speed in the morning and check the reefing chart on the cat they are on and reef as needed. They should also listen to the forecast to see how things may change while sailing too.

And yes, loads can impact any boat, but your link to a racing boat has no relevance here. A typical charter mono is going to heel a lot in most cases if someone doesn't reef when they should. A typical charter cat is more likely to have something break.

So while you may not want or need a wind gauge and I could get by without it (but I do prefer to have working instruments) I think we should be able to agree that there are some people that will benefit from having it. It could be argued that they shouldn't be chartering, but that's a whole other topic..

For most of us a wind gauge is like training wheels on a bike. If you have learned to sail without one you do not need one. If you continue to rely on the "training wheels" that come with a chart plotter, GPS, and wind instruments it is just a matter of time before the crew gets themselves in trouble. Modern history repeats itself over and over here. You certainly do not need any of those things to move around the BVI and if you think(or know) you do you are putting yourself, the boat, and the people with you in the wrong place. Just like going too fast on a bike with training wheels you will crash. It is just a matter of time. When The Moorings opened shop the boats came with none of those toys. The original Moorings Pearson 35's chartered for $500 a week after they were sailed to the BVI on their own bottoms from New Orleans and Houston. Depth sounders were added to charter boats +/- 1975.

Clearly this charterer had more than his share of problems with this boat. We charter from BVIYC. We had an issue last charter that kept us at anchor in Mountain Trunk for an extra day with anchor windlass issue. They sent Polo (sp) from Leverick to get us up and running. If your stuck at anchor that's not a bad place to be, but it could have been worse elsewhere. At the end of the charter that gave us a free day on our next charter for the inconvenience. We have had minor stuff with other boats, as the environs in BVI is brutal, but that many problems on one charter might not get me back to Horizon for another charter.

Rita were you not able to put a winch handle in the windlass to get the anchor back? Or was the windlass hopelessly fouled somehow?

On a second note the original poster did not provide enough details for us to find Horizon or the charter operator guilty of any of the issue reported. There is the possibility some of these issues are operator error. Switches off, electrical connections knock off line during the storage of bags or other. Failure to inspect any or all of this before signing off on the boat. Did the fuel gauge say F all the time. On a 7 day charter that is very possible or did the crew leave with the boat on E? Way too many details even from one side of the story are missing.

Consider many will spend endless hours planning and obsessing over the trip plans. See the last million TTOL posts. Then rush through the boat inspection, sign off, and check out. At a minimuim no matter what the dock guys say. Get a hose and put it in your water tank running, make sure there are no air traps giving you a false fill. Happens all the time to the crew that swears their water keeps disappearing. While one solid crew is inspecting the water tanks are full. Another crew should be down below with all the taps open. If you have a fresh water performance issue it should show up there at the dock before you leave. After all the taps are closed and the tanks completely filled by you. Listen for the water pump cycling with the taps closed. Report and solve that issue before you leave the dock.

LOL - So to sum up, your issues on your boat are common. Sit back grab a pop and enjoy the view. I'm jealous - wheels up in 40 days!

Oh yea, you're not crazy - we are!!!

I love to read forums! Very entertaining!! Honestly I think everyone's tolerance for broken stuff on the boat is individual. I can certainly see the logic in thinking that "I paid a helluva lot of money for this boat for the week and I want the stuff I paid for to work!" I can also see the logic of "I am on vacation and nothing is going to ruin my trip. As long as it isn't safety related and my beer is cold, I don't care!".

I'm more in the second group. Stuff is going to break. I have had the autohelm go out on the way to Anegada, the generator not start and numerous other little issues. If I can't fix it and it's not safety related, I just wait till I turn the boat back in. Oh well...pass me another cold beer from the cooler.

We had a short on the windlass on a moorings charter once but we were able to use my stepdaughter's (now -ex) boyfriend to complete the circuit. Worked beautifully & only left his eyebrows a little bit singed. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

I also caught the cord from the "remote" on a windlass in a chain once. No excuse for that but not paying attention, we just had to report it & pay for it. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/hammer.gif" alt="" />

I would HATE to have to winch our anchor up, especially if we had a lot of chain out! The damn thing weighs 99 pounds, & that would be AFTER winching the boat across at least 100+ feet of chain??? Major UGH. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />

If I was the owner of a cat in charter, I would probably want to have a working anemometer. I think it is a safety issue for inexperienced cat sailors. That way the briefing can include things like first reef at 15 knots, 2nd at 20knots, etc. I've actually seen a couple of dismasted charter cats being towed in the last few years, and I've never seen a dismasted mono in 25 years of chartering.

I've sailed plenty of miles on my own monohull, and it is pretty obvious when you need to reef - I haven't ever had working wind instruments for it. It is a lot different on a charter cat, being overpowered feels different and is less obvious. If you are serious about taking care of your fleet, you should make sure you maintain the parts of the boat that can cause the most damage if they fail. I'd say that your steering, standing rigging, anchor tackle, instruments, and engine fall into this category.

Arguments about the skill of charterers are probably not that relevant in this case, there are always going to be less skilled or less familiar captains on board from time to time as long as the business is concerned about asset utilization. You can mitigate the damage with better briefings and better screening, but you still need to make sure that small problems don't become big ones. That's also why I like chart plotters, even though any decent mariner knows they shouldn't be used exclusively. Without them, someone is always going to dead reckon themselves somewhere that they shouldn't be.

Most of the other stuff the OP had happen is pretty standard IMHO, although he was on a bit of a run of bad luck it seems. I would fix most of it by having another beer, and complaining about it later to possibly get some restitution because I'm a cheapskate. Calling the chase boat is a pain and waiting around for them to fix stuff gets old fast.

One time I fed all of our anchor chain overboard in 35 ft of water at CGB, the bitter end wasn't attached. Had to fix that though, BVIYC disapproves of lost anchors. Fortunately we had someone who could freedive 35 ft and find it.

The Moorings Four(4) Hour Guarantee is really very telling on what is reasonable to expect:

What's Covered

The following equipment is considered essential to the operation of the yacht and is covered: engine, transmission, windlass, sails, standing and running rigging, battery and alternator.

What this Guarantee Does Not Cover

All breakdowns will be serviced. However, compensatory sailing time will not be provided for repairs to the following items: cellular phone, VHF, refrigeration, stereo/cassette/CD player, auto pilot, GPS, water pressure pump, dinghy, outboard, knot meter, depth sounder, air conditioning and any other item which does not render the yacht inoperable. The Moorings or Moorings Preferred Partner will make every effort to repair these types of problems as soon as possible, if the charterer chooses; however, charterers may be asked to move to an anchorage that is more accessible to our repair team.
Also excluded from this compensatory guarantee are any breakdowns that occur outside the twenty-mile radius of a Moorings or Moorings Preferred Partner base, voyages into USVI waters or chartering to Bimini from Miami, and problems resulting from the negligent operation of the charterer.

Definitely agree that everyone's tolerance is different. Circumstances also play a role. Your frustration with waiting a day for maintenance (had gear shift blown; had belts break and the spare one I made sure was there before the trip was the wrong size, etc) on a 6 day charter w all newbies, is obviously less than your 10th two week charter w your wife. Still, if you are a sailor you know things happen (thats part of the fun/excitment). All I ask if for the charter company to be honest and upfront. Unfort I have not always had that expereince. My last charter just two weeks ago, the autohelm did not work - it did not fail, it never worked. I happened to be w many sailors so it never became an issue but I have taken many trips w just my family , esp when the kids were young when the autohelm was a dependable mate. The company told me, oh yeah, theres a problem w garmin software updates and we are waiting for (vague explanation here) something from manufacture. Translation: we knew it didnt work before you left. Personally, I think that was dangerous and disrespectful.

I once did a week long charter on a cat with only one engine. The charter company knew the port engine was inop but had no spare boat and did not want to move the charter to another company. It worked out ok and the charter company did send me a T shirt for my trouble!
G

We still had fun! The BVI is amazing!! We didn't care about the AC and wanted to go without but after being to,d all appliances would work without ac we opted to go without. Need coffee! Turned out many things didn't work since they disconnected the generator. We had to to return to Nanny Cay to get it turned back on. Lost good part of a day. Then ac didn't work and second bedroom had little ventilation.

Did it work on the porch?