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I once ran out of propane to run our stove and make coffee on day two of a 5 day offshore passage, about 80 miles from any land. Facing immediate crew mutiny, we made all sail for the nearest port of call. Continuing without coffee was deemed to be complete madness.
After that, redundant coffee making systems were installed (inverter, small electric coffee maker) for similar emergencies. Competent cruising captains know that all essential systems need at least one redundant backup. Coffee is absolutely essential. Beer too, running out that would be a flogging offense on my ship.
Last edited by Call_me_Ishmael; 04/20/2016 06:04 PM.
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I should add that I think the boat we chartered was too old. 2009. We found out it is for sale.
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A new (or newish) boat was always at the top of our charter preference list, unless we knew the particular boat & its history.
2009 is pretty old for a charter boat that isn't in a second or 3rd tier company. They take a beating.
If I can't be a good example, I'll just have to be a horrible warning. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.runemasterstudios.com/graemlins/images/whaat.gif)
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Wow…some are wound a little tight….lighten up….
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Call_me_Ishmael said:
I once ran out of propane to run our stove and make coffee on day two of a 5 day offshore passage, about 80 miles from any land. Facing immediate crew mutiny, we made all sail for the nearest port of call. Continuing without coffee was deemed to be complete madness.
After that, redundant coffee making systems were installed (inverter, small electric coffee maker) for similar emergencies. Competent cruising captains know that all essential systems need at least one redundant backup. Coffee is absolutely essential. Beer too, running out that would be a flogging offense on my ship. Was the grill propane? We have had that same inexcusable problem as well. I fired up the grill and put the pot over the coals. Just like a camping trip. That's the thing about sailors - we can just about MacGyver anything!
“Dawn comes early on a boat, right Captain? That’s right it happens everyday just about sun up!”
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That would work well at anchor. It would be far more difficult to pull off sailing offshore!
G
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maytrix said:casailor53 said:maytrix said:
On a cat, knowing the wind speed is critical. That is a must have. On a mono, less critical, but still important, not just something to play with. Curious as to why you say this? Because on a cat, there's no heeling, so you need to reef to reduce the load - too much load and you can break something. It can be a problem on a mono as well, but you get more warning. I kinda broke my rule of reading the entire thread before posting a reply to an early comment. And after reading them all, and seeing your reply to my question, maytrix, I guess I fall into the StormJib/Kirk camp on this one. Personally, I reef based on the feel at the helm, as opposed to some pre-set windspeed. The small size of the rudders on the charter cats make this particularly easy. But of course the real problem is that too many people are chartering boats that are way too big for their skillset.
Last edited by casailor53; 04/21/2016 11:38 AM.
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Call_me_Ishmael said:
I once ran out of propane to run our stove and make coffee on day two of a 5 day offshore passage I was doing a BVI to Port Everglades delivery when an electrical problem kept the solenoid from working. With two days to go, we bypassed that in a minute to be able to make coffee!
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StormJib said:
All normal operating issues for boats. All those issues are compounded by the BVI charter environment. The BVI boats and electronics are exposed to salt and heat 24/7/365 in some cases for years with limited fresh water to clear the salts daily. Many of the boats are used far more than any were ever designed to be used. Some boats are designed, built, and outfitted more to be sold to the inexperienced budget buyers at the boat shows. Not all boats in the charter boats are created equal not even close. Same with the operators. Age of the weak boats and weakly outfitted boats will make a big difference. Even when everything is done well. Small critters even a single squid can stop the AC cooling pumps in their tracks. In your case previous salt water intrusion corroding inferior wiring terminals could have caused all of this along with many more options. None of those issues have anything to do with the core equipment of standing rigging, sails, or steering. Reality those are all normal nuisance issues on many boats. Understanding the fresh water system and some basic troubleshooting ability are good life skills to have. If you are going to rent a boat with AC. Make sure you understand where the cooling pump water is supposed to exit and understand how to clear those lines yourself when it does not. Never be in a rush to get away from the dock, always run all those systems yourself at the dock before you leave, never be in a rush to get away from the dock. In this case none of these issues have anything to do with the vessel itself. All these issues are bolt on nice to have features that are not a part of the design or vessel engineering. The better operators and better boats have redundant fresh water pumps. Despite some of the noise in this thread there is a lot of good information. The paragraph or so above is some of the best advice I have seen here in a while. You have invested thousands of dollars in your vacation. The time to travel here and get to the boat. Investing a few hours at the dock getting to know your home for the next week to ten days can be invaluable to the quality of your trip. Know where the equipment is and have at least a fundamental knowledge of how that equipment works or if it works. Most of the issues in this thread while typical by themselves on a five year old charter boat could likely have been handled by the companies staff prior to departure if the time where allowed to do that. Yes in a perfect world you would show up to a Bristol boat everything working perfect and sail on in perfect harmony. A lot of us in the industry try to to preform to that level but even the good companies have a bad charter from time to time. As a company we (CYOA) have always believed in a thorough briefing and check out sail with each client tailored to the boat that the client is on. Knowing how to clear a sea water strainer or change an impeller are fairly important skills for every charter guest. No we don't expect the guests to be full blown marine technicians and all of the companies have systems set up to handle chase calls when necessary but sometimes a little self help goes a long way.
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Ha, no kidding. Not a big fan of open flame while under sail.LOL
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CaptainJay said:StormJib said:
All normal operating issues for boats. All those issues are compounded by the BVI charter environment. The BVI boats and electronics are exposed to salt and heat 24/7/365 in some cases for years with limited fresh water to clear the salts daily. Many of the boats are used far more than any were ever designed to be used. Some boats are designed, built, and outfitted more to be sold to the inexperienced budget buyers at the boat shows. Not all boats in the charter boats are created equal not even close. Same with the operators. Age of the weak boats and weakly outfitted boats will make a big difference. Even when everything is done well. Small critters even a single squid can stop the AC cooling pumps in their tracks. In your case previous salt water intrusion corroding inferior wiring terminals could have caused all of this along with many more options. None of those issues have anything to do with the core equipment of standing rigging, sails, or steering. Reality those are all normal nuisance issues on many boats. Understanding the fresh water system and some basic troubleshooting ability are good life skills to have. If you are going to rent a boat with AC. Make sure you understand where the cooling pump water is supposed to exit and understand how to clear those lines yourself when it does not. Never be in a rush to get away from the dock, always run all those systems yourself at the dock before you leave, never be in a rush to get away from the dock. In this case none of these issues have anything to do with the vessel itself. All these issues are bolt on nice to have features that are not a part of the design or vessel engineering. The better operators and better boats have redundant fresh water pumps. Despite some of the noise in this thread there is a lot of good information. The paragraph or so above is some of the best advice I have seen here in a while. You have invested thousands of dollars in your vacation. The time to travel here and get to the boat. Investing a few hours at the dock getting to know your home for the next week to ten days can be invaluable to the quality of your trip. Know where the equipment is and have at least a fundamental knowledge of how that equipment works or if it works. Most of the issues in this thread while typical by themselves on a five year old charter boat could likely have been handled by the companies staff prior to departure if the time where allowed to do that. Yes in a perfect world you would show up to a Bristol boat everything working perfect and sail on in perfect harmony. A lot of us in the industry try to to preform to that level but even the good companies have a bad charter from time to time. As a company we (CYOA) have always believed in a thorough briefing and check out sail with each client tailored to the boat that the client is on. Knowing how to clear a sea water strainer or change an impeller are fairly important skills for every charter guest. No we don't expect the guests to be full blown marine technicians and all of the companies have systems set up to handle chase calls when necessary but sometimes a little self help goes a long way. There are many threads and posts on how long you must budget to get through SJU or the STT and Ferry Dances. Not much on the modern checkout. In the days when the boats just had two sails, a standard engine, and not much more many could really skip the checkout without issue. The boats have changed and can be very different. The difference can be as simple as a hidden breaker for the windlass. Now the real question. How much time does a proper briefing/knowledge transfer take or add for a genset, multi AC, watermaker, inverter, solar......
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StormJib said:CaptainJay said:StormJib said:
All normal operating issues for boats. All those issues are compounded by the BVI charter environment. The BVI boats and electronics are exposed to salt and heat 24/7/365 in some cases for years with limited fresh water to clear the salts daily. Many of the boats are used far more than any were ever designed to be used. Some boats are designed, built, and outfitted more to be sold to the inexperienced budget buyers at the boat shows. Not all boats in the charter boats are created equal not even close. Same with the operators. Age of the weak boats and weakly outfitted boats will make a big difference. Even when everything is done well. Small critters even a single squid can stop the AC cooling pumps in their tracks. In your case previous salt water intrusion corroding inferior wiring terminals could have caused all of this along with many more options. None of those issues have anything to do with the core equipment of standing rigging, sails, or steering. Reality those are all normal nuisance issues on many boats. Understanding the fresh water system and some basic troubleshooting ability are good life skills to have. If you are going to rent a boat with AC. Make sure you understand where the cooling pump water is supposed to exit and understand how to clear those lines yourself when it does not. Never be in a rush to get away from the dock, always run all those systems yourself at the dock before you leave, never be in a rush to get away from the dock. In this case none of these issues have anything to do with the vessel itself. All these issues are bolt on nice to have features that are not a part of the design or vessel engineering. The better operators and better boats have redundant fresh water pumps. Despite some of the noise in this thread there is a lot of good information. The paragraph or so above is some of the best advice I have seen here in a while. You have invested thousands of dollars in your vacation. The time to travel here and get to the boat. Investing a few hours at the dock getting to know your home for the next week to ten days can be invaluable to the quality of your trip. Know where the equipment is and have at least a fundamental knowledge of how that equipment works or if it works. Most of the issues in this thread while typical by themselves on a five year old charter boat could likely have been handled by the companies staff prior to departure if the time where allowed to do that. Yes in a perfect world you would show up to a Bristol boat everything working perfect and sail on in perfect harmony. A lot of us in the industry try to to preform to that level but even the good companies have a bad charter from time to time. As a company we (CYOA) have always believed in a thorough briefing and check out sail with each client tailored to the boat that the client is on. Knowing how to clear a sea water strainer or change an impeller are fairly important skills for every charter guest. No we don't expect the guests to be full blown marine technicians and all of the companies have systems set up to handle chase calls when necessary but sometimes a little self help goes a long way. There are many threads and posts on how long you must budget to get through SJU or the STT and Ferry Dances. Not much on the modern checkout. In the days when the boats just had two sails, a standard engine, and not much more many could really skip the checkout without issue. The boats have changed and can be very different. The difference can be as simple as a hidden breaker for the windlass. Now the real question. How much time does a proper briefing/knowledge transfer take or add for a genset, multi AC, watermaker, inverter, solar...... Interesting question. I've only used Conch for the last 4 or 5 charters, but they do a fairly hands on boat check-out. Of course they don't have a large number of boats leaving on any given day...but I'd hate to see the back-log on check-outs at say The Moorings or Sunsail on a Saturday if they were as hands on.
Kirk in Maryland
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Call_me_Ishmael said:
I once ran out of propane to run our stove and make coffee on day two of a 5 day offshore passage, about 80 miles from any land. Facing immediate crew mutiny, we made all sail for the nearest port of call. Continuing without coffee was deemed to be complete madness.
Was the grill propane? We have had that same inexcusable problem as well. I fired up the grill and put the pot over the coals. Just like a camping trip. That's the thing about sailors - we can just about MacGyver anything!
Yeah, we had a propane grill too. Definite redundancy planning failure. It took about 18 hours of sailing to get to the nearest landfall. It was worth it though, as it was about 8 am and time for the morning coffee when we arrived!
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CaptainJay said:
You have invested thousands of dollars in your vacation. The time to travel here and get to the boat. Investing a few hours at the dock getting to know your home for the next week to ten days can be invaluable to the quality of your trip. Know where the equipment is and have at least a fundamental knowledge of how that equipment works or if it works. Most of the issues in this thread while typical by themselves on a five year old charter boat could likely have been handled by the companies staff prior to departure if the time where allowed to do that.
Yes in a perfect world you would show up to a Bristol boat everything working perfect and sail on in perfect harmony. A lot of us in the industry try to to preform to that level but even the good companies have a bad charter from time to time.
As a company we (CYOA) have always believed in a thorough briefing and check out sail with each client tailored to the boat that the client is on. Knowing how to clear a sea water strainer or change an impeller are fairly important skills for every charter guest. No we don't expect the guests to be full blown marine technicians and all of the companies have systems set up to handle chase calls when necessary but sometimes a little self help goes a long way. Captain Jay - one of the many things that impresses me about CYOA is the spare parts inventory and tool kit that you put on each boat. The spares include a customized set of fuel filters, raw water impeller kits, and belts for EACH engine and generator onboard, plus sufficient tools for the charterer to perform these replacements if capable. Also included is a dinghy outboard repair kit with sparkplugs, starter cord, and spare propeller! I did 20+ charters with Sunsail, TMM, ProValor, and Conch and never saw anything comparable. I wasted effectively 2 days on a TMM charter getting a broken alternator belt replaced 3 different times because the first two replacements they brought were not properly sized and quickly self-destructed.
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StormJib said:Kirk said:Hmmm...wonder if I could use this thread to justify actually getting a wind speed guage installed on my boat? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" /> She's almost 30 years old and never had one. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> For most of us a wind gauge is like training wheels on a bike. If you have learned to sail without one you do not need one. If you continue to rely on the "training wheels" that come with a chart plotter, GPS, and wind instruments it is just a matter of time before the crew gets themselves in trouble. Modern history repeats itself over and over here. You certainly do not need any of those things to move around the BVI and if you think(or know) you do you are putting yourself, the boat, and the people with you in the wrong place. Just like going too fast on a bike with training wheels you will crash. It is just a matter of time. When The Moorings opened shop the boats came with none of those toys. The original Moorings Pearson 35's chartered for $500 a week after they were sailed to the BVI on their own bottoms from New Orleans and Houston. Depth sounders were added to charter boats +/- 1975. Oh come on storm Jib..... really? A wind instrument is like training wheels? Seriously, you want to make people feel like they just aren't "salty" enough if they use some technology? Wind instruments can help in many many ways. It can help someone who isn't on the water all the time like you are. It can help other newbies learn some basics of sailing. It can help promote safe enjoyable experiences on the water and that is what this is supposed to be about. If you want to take off and say the he** with anything other than you and Moby dick then go for. Just don't verbally push people around when they see the world differently.
Be Happy or Leave
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GoneSailing said:StormJib said:Kirk said:Hmmm...wonder if I could use this thread to justify actually getting a wind speed guage installed on my boat? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" /> She's almost 30 years old and never had one. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> For most of us a wind gauge is like training wheels on a bike. If you have learned to sail without one you do not need one. If you continue to rely on the "training wheels" that come with a chart plotter, GPS, and wind instruments it is just a matter of time before the crew gets themselves in trouble. Modern history repeats itself over and over here. You certainly do not need any of those things to move around the BVI and if you think(or know) you do you are putting yourself, the boat, and the people with you in the wrong place. Just like going too fast on a bike with training wheels you will crash. It is just a matter of time. When The Moorings opened shop the boats came with none of those toys. The original Moorings Pearson 35's chartered for $500 a week after they were sailed to the BVI on their own bottoms from New Orleans and Houston. Depth sounders were added to charter boats +/- 1975. Oh come on storm Jib..... really? A wind instrument is like training wheels? Seriously, you want to make people feel like they just aren't "salty" enough if they use some technology? Wind instruments can help in many many ways. It can help someone who isn't on the water all the time like you are. It can help other newbies learn some basics of sailing. It can help promote safe enjoyable experiences on the water and that is what this is supposed to be about. If you want to take off and say the he** with anything other than you and Moby dick then go for. Just don't verbally push people around when they see the world differently. It's a sailboat; it's all about the wind! I have found that the best sailors are the ones who start in dinghies (Opties, 420s, Flying Scots, Fireballs, etc), where feeling the breeze and reacting quickly as it changes is the difference between staying (relatively) dry and capsizing. The growth of the bareboat industry has helped to spawn a different set of sailors, who are geared to the more sluggish response of a keelboat and not in tune with the nuances of the wind. "Be the ball."
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GoneSailing said:StormJib said:Kirk said:Hmmm...wonder if I could use this thread to justify actually getting a wind speed guage installed on my boat? <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" /> She's almost 30 years old and never had one. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/cry.gif" alt="" /> For most of us a wind gauge is like training wheels on a bike. If you have learned to sail without one you do not need one. If you continue to rely on the "training wheels" that come with a chart plotter, GPS, and wind instruments it is just a matter of time before the crew gets themselves in trouble. Modern history repeats itself over and over here. You certainly do not need any of those things to move around the BVI and if you think(or know) you do you are putting yourself, the boat, and the people with you in the wrong place. Just like going too fast on a bike with training wheels you will crash. It is just a matter of time. When The Moorings opened shop the boats came with none of those toys. The original Moorings Pearson 35's chartered for $500 a week after they were sailed to the BVI on their own bottoms from New Orleans and Houston. Depth sounders were added to charter boats +/- 1975. Oh come on storm Jib..... really? A wind instrument is like training wheels? Seriously, you want to make people feel like they just aren't "salty" enough if they use some technology? Wind instruments can help in many many ways. It can help someone who isn't on the water all the time like you are. It can help other newbies learn some basics of sailing. It can help promote safe enjoyable experiences on the water and that is what this is supposed to be about. If you want to take off and say the he** with anything other than you and Moby dick then go for. Just don't verbally push people around when they see the world differently. I am not suggesting we do away with electronics. What I am suggesting is we eliminate the thought that someone cannot be on the water without them. If the instinct is to look down rather than up and out at the first hint of change or danger we are setting ourselves up for harm. The modern electronic instrument is a great tool to confirm what you see and feel outside the boat, even fine tune what you see and feel outside the boat. Those toys should never be used as the primary and only source of information. The goal should be the water life skill of "getting your head out of the boat" and keeping you head and eyes out of the boat. Again there is no need for any electronic instruments of any kind in the BVI.
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Hmmm. I gotta say, ya really don't need any of that fancy crap in the BVI...including wind instrumentation.
I know that you think it's ancient history, but I chartered my 62 foot ketch in the BVI with NO instruments and no charts - just watching the colors of the bottom - and a placemat to show the guests where we were.
I'm not a super-sailor, but I was inexorably in tune with my boat. That was the magical beauty of it all...whether I was puttering around the BVI, or sailing offshore. The more you rely on instrumentation, the less you are in tune with your boat - that's an indisputable fact.
And if you seriously don't know when to reef without looking at an anemometer, ya got some sailing to do before you head offshore.
If it's a completely worry-free vacation that you want, give up the ruse of sailing, and get a power cat. It will get you to the same mooring balls, and bars that are your goals.
If you want to sail, then sail, and leave your technology at home in your BMW. It will be there when you return.
I've owned a couple of boats in the Caribbean, and my mantra has always been 'less is more'. Maintaining the electronic crap means less time sailing.
I feel just a tad guilty about really loving my autopilot on my last boat,however. As a single-hander, it was really nice to have a 'friend' (I named him Otto) take the helm. Except one day I was lulled into a deep sleep by the gentle swells returning from Anegada, and nearly crashed into Larmers Bay. Oops. Technology.
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Thanks for all the feedback! I agree with a lot of it. Guess next time I'd like a newer boat, a different charter company, and my children with me because they are awesome sailors and we love to be with them. And my new son in law is a great sailor as well as an engineer. Who knows, maybe we'd even go back to Horizon.
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I think a good check list would help. Wind instruments are nice but in my opinion not necessary because you do not know the how the boat handles. You can tell when the boat is overpowered and let the traveler out and suck in the jib. Then reef the main. Mono hulls are much easier to read (weather helm etc). Cats are a different thing altogether. Wind instruments are more important here because you do not get a lot of feedback. Just my two cents. BVI sailing is easy I think the longest sail is Leverick to Anageda or to Jost. All the Best
Steve
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CaptainJay said:StormJib said:
All normal operating issues for boats. All those issues are compounded by the BVI charter environment. The BVI boats and electronics are exposed to salt and heat 24/7/365 in some cases for years with limited fresh water to clear the salts daily. Many of the boats are used far more than any were ever designed to be used. Some boats are designed, built, and outfitted more to be sold to the inexperienced budget buyers at the boat shows. Not all boats in the charter boats are created equal not even close. Same with the operators. Age of the weak boats and weakly outfitted boats will make a big difference. Even when everything is done well. Small critters even a single squid can stop the AC cooling pumps in their tracks. In your case previous salt water intrusion corroding inferior wiring terminals could have caused all of this along with many more options. None of those issues have anything to do with the core equipment of standing rigging, sails, or steering. Reality those are all normal nuisance issues on many boats. Understanding the fresh water system and some basic troubleshooting ability are good life skills to have. If you are going to rent a boat with AC. Make sure you understand where the cooling pump water is supposed to exit and understand how to clear those lines yourself when it does not. Never be in a rush to get away from the dock, always run all those systems yourself at the dock before you leave, never be in a rush to get away from the dock. In this case none of these issues have anything to do with the vessel itself. All these issues are bolt on nice to have features that are not a part of the design or vessel engineering. The better operators and better boats have redundant fresh water pumps. Despite some of the noise in this thread there is a lot of good information. The paragraph or so above is some of the best advice I have seen here in a while. You have invested thousands of dollars in your vacation. The time to travel here and get to the boat. Investing a few hours at the dock getting to know your home for the next week to ten days can be invaluable to the quality of your trip. Know where the equipment is and have at least a fundamental knowledge of how that equipment works or if it works. Most of the issues in this thread while typical by themselves on a five year old charter boat could likely have been handled by the companies staff prior to departure if the time where allowed to do that. Yes in a perfect world you would show up to a Bristol boat everything working perfect and sail on in perfect harmony. A lot of us in the industry try to to preform to that level but even the good companies have a bad charter from time to time. As a company we (CYOA) have always believed in a thorough briefing and check out sail with each client tailored to the boat that the client is on. Knowing how to clear a sea water strainer or change an impeller are fairly important skills for every charter guest. No we don't expect the guests to be full blown marine technicians and all of the companies have systems set up to handle chase calls when necessary but sometimes a little self help goes a long way. As the owner of a charter boat, I do not want my guests doing any maintenance or repairs on my boat. I expect you to check the oil and the few other basic checks everyday. But leave the repairs to professionals please.
s/v Snow Dog - Leopard 46
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 969
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I am with BaardJ - I like having the spares aboard CYOA or Island yachts boats! I can fix the minor stuff...
Capndar
Masters 50 GT Sail/Power/Towing
3rd generation sailor
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 180 Likes: 1
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 180 Likes: 1 |
No disrespect intended, but the Beafuort Scale is something I think all sailors should familiarize themselves with. [censored] breaks all the time. If you need to know what the wind speeds are nature's context clues are all you need to define the range. But honestly, if the wind speeds are increasing you can feather both mono and cats to reduce pressure until the gust passes and you can reef. Just turn slightly to weather until you start seeing a bubble in the main/jib and feel the boat depower naturally. I also always tell anyone on board that while flogging sails sound violent, it is by far the best way to keep the boat and people safe, then reef as needed.
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Joined: Nov 2014
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capndar said:
I am with BaardJ - I like having the spares aboard CYOA or Island yachts boats! I can fix the minor stuff... My experience is that is controlled and part of the charter operators culture. The real hint. Those that want you to attempt to fix stuff put tools on the boat. No tools the owner or operator wants you to always call for help and wait at the bar for them to take the boat dinghy out to the break fix task.
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