TravelTalkOnline Forums Travel and Vacation Forums British Virgin Islands Rocking, rolly all night long!

We picked up a mooring ball last night at White Bay, JVD. It was the roughest night we have EVER spent anywhere!! We rocked and rolled all night. And it wasn't even windy enough to to sail yesterday and today. Drats!

The forecast was and is very clear for a northwest swell. Small 11 second swell that will roll into the shallow water and roll every boat. A little bigger and more to the west the wave break and throw the boats onto the beach just like the sand. Always check the swell forecast particularity for change during the night before you overnight in White Bay or any place wide open like that. The wrong shift at the wrong time will put every boat on the beach or up against the rocks.

Jib - Where do you typically check for these forecasts?

Play around with wind guru. http://www.windguru.cz/int/index.php?sc=522780&sty=m_spot

It will show primary and secondary swells.

Obviously direction is important. What should we watch for in swell period ?

Swell height is measured in open water... swells with a longer period move faster and contain more energy and expend that energy when they reach shore. I generally take notice when the swell period is in double digits.

I clicked on this wind guru link and, as I read it, the swells are S-SW, so White Bay should be protected and comfortable. Am I reading the table incorrectly? Intuitively, the arrow head I would think would point in the direction the swell is traveling. I'm going on my 3rd BVI bareboat charter in the summer and would like to use wind guru for planning my itinerary.

Thanks!

North swell is in effect....things should improve by Tuesday-ish <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

We had a solid 6 to 8 foot swell hitting the north shore of Tortola yesterday..waves were overhead for the surfers..really nice day for surfing..not so good if you were anchored in CGB or White Bay. Swell has dropped by half already today. Yesterday at high tide we were getting spray over the wall here at CRC..One day we had a beautiful beach..next day big waves..

you can also look here for a real time graph of the N swell coming.
http://www.ndbc.noaa.gov/show_plot.php?s...;time_label=GMT

If you are going to stay anywhere unprotected you want stable or non changing conditions unless you are an expert on the location and can predict how a change will impact where your boat will be in the middle of the night. White Bay is wide open and adjacent to other larger islands. White Bay can be impacted by swells directly in its direction or waves crashing onto the larger nearby islands and echoing their way to White Bay. In some cases these swifts can happen almost instantly. In moments a peaceful open bay is tranquil then boom untenable. That is why open and often crowded White Bay is off limits to many charter boats. Dark night, the sudden appearance of waves or swell, inexperienced or intoxicated crews... stuff happens? If you see sand on the shore waves threw that sand there. When the conditions go bad they can throw boats up there just like the sand.

Is Great Harbour protected from swells like this or will "echoing" waves get up in there too?

Great Harbour is protected.

We had this same night last March. Boat rocked & rolled and kept smacking our mooring ball all night. This year, we're going to JVD white bay for the day and mooring in Great Harbour for the night.

Lcrich, you are very fortunate you did not break loose. A north swell at White Bay is downright dangerous. We have anchored at White Bay many times, but only in favorable weather conditions

The forecast for that night was for a bad N swell and also a chance of storms. Not a night to even consider staying in White Bay. I would only overnight there with a perfect forecast.
G

There was a time when White Bay was redlined by many charter companies. Not sure that is still the case, but this shows exactly why it was. I will never forget snorkelling in the bay and seeing the debris of a boat wreck. I had no idea it had happened a couple of days beforehand and it was shocking to see things like crockery, cutlery, pillows and towels on the sea bed, plus untold damage to the coral reef. Not a place for an over night stay unless you can (and of course, you rarely can) be 100% certain of the potential conditions.

One bad night there was enough for me. Seas were calm all day. Swell rolled in after dark and we had 3 -4 foot breakers on the reef. An old 50 foot steel hull mono tried to escape about midnight and he washed up on the reef. The breakers finally bounced him over the reef and he got an anchor down. Sleepless night for everyone that night. Im like you George it would be a very convincing forecast before i would stay there again. Too easy to motor around the corner to any of the other protected spots at JVD.

It was redlined because the entries through the reef were not marked.

It was and is red lined for a long list of reason starting with getting in, then weather and sea state changes during both the day and night, overcrowded intoxicated operation, and then the same danger for many trying to leave in any condition.

We have a boat in charter and White Bay is indeed redlined. We sail at least 3 times a year and find grabbing a mooring ball at Great Harbor and taking the dingy over to White Bay is no big deal. As an owner I expect all charter's first concern is to protect the safety of their chartered boat. Anything less and please rent another boat. White Bay is redlined by most companies for good reason. Not mooring at White Bay won't detract from a great sailing experience

We looked at weather that night and did not see anything.
And zero wind all day! Guess we need a new weather channel!

I've chartered w/ Moorings, Sunsail, Footloose and Conch Charters. None of their charts or pre-chart briefing instructions mentioned red lining JVD WB.

However, I have never overnighted there, even left one time because the traffic was too crazy! Last trip, we arrived early and left by mid afternoon to Little Harbour to avoid the crazies. I wouldn't want to be faced with moving late after a day of drinking Soggy Dollar Painkillers!

Did you look at and can you translate how the swell forecast will change the conditions in the White Bay anchorage? The change in swell that has traveled thousands of miles is the biggest threat once inside the anchorage. I short micro burst can be scary but manageable for the few minutes they normally last. Waking up to rollers is an entirely different animal. I was in Salt Whistle Bay, Mayreau one afternoon where the swell switch and in minutes all the cat on anchored in the shallow water ended up on the beach. The mono's in deeper water just swung and rolled. The cats were launched onto the beach. All in minutes.

I would try and find a go to weather site. I use this one.
http://weather.noaa.gov/cgi-bin/fmtbltn.pl?file=forecasts/marine/coastal/am/amz715.txt

Here was their forecast for the night in question.


EAST WINDS 5 TO 10 KNOTS. SEAS 4 TO 7 FEET WITH
OCCASIONAL SEAS UP TO 8 FEET. DOMINANT PERIOD 10 SECONDS. NORTH SWELL 4 TO
6 FEET. SCATTERED SHOWERS.

At least there is the potential for highly reliable short term swell forecasts.

White Bay is not redlined by most charter companies. Maybe yours but not the TUIGroup charter companies which dominate the market and many others.

jphart - you make a good point about the afternoon at soggy dollar and then making it back to Great Harbour to grab a mooring ball for the night. Is it a fairly easy dinghy ride from Great Harbour to Soggy Dollar?

It is fairly easy..BUT..stay close to the shore..there have been a couple of very nasty incidents of dinghys and kayaks getting run over..

Check out the SDB webcam. Rarely are there boats there around sundown. I was there midday and had s!?$ tossed all around our boat after a few hours. Great Harbour is a much better choice for an overnight mooring.

Last year most of the charter companies did redline White Bay. Reason being it has more boat damage done than any other place in the BVI. There was a thread about this last year. We love sharing our boat and in doing so appreciate people respecting the investment in our boat. Most if not all owners expect the same. Why put your entire vacation at risk let alone increase the likelihood of damage just to sail into the most dangerous spot in the BVI when you can still get there with a 5 minute dingy ride?

between Great Harbor and White Bay is "Pull and be Damn' Point"
http://mapcarta.com/19500564

You keep saying "most" charter companies have redlined White Bay. By "most" do you mean the number of boats or "most" by the number of invdividual companies regardless of the fleet size. Which charter companies have redlined?

Over time I expect all the operators have or will at one point ban visits to the place. I have decades of BVI charter charts that show the White Bay off limits. It depends on who is in charge at the moment. The insurance underwriter, marketing and sales arm, or the guys who have to fix the boats or explain to the next guest on the dock why their reserved yacht is unavailable. White Bay would never fit the definition of safe to the prudent mariner. Wide open for 180 degrees, very shallow area immediately adjacent to deep open water with one a narrow passage to get out. A very small, very shallow anchorage with an unforgiving shore. The place is textbook for disaster and there is real good history of boats lost there in minutes. On top of the small unsafe unprotected anchorage we load in drunks, amateurs, and their "helpful" crews, guests, and admirals. I have gone in there for years with rental boats. I would not take my own boat that was important to me in there. Too much risk from the guy I do not know next to me. Back to the charter operator. To them it is like running a skating rink. Some customers will get hurt, it is a cost of doing business. If the operators redlined all the areas that should be redlined. The proper places would be very crowded that is bad for business. No prudent mariner should be in Cane Garden or Deadmans Bay either. Back to White Bay before you go in there make sure you know whether the swell is forecast to change in size or direction. Make sure you and your entire crew is ready to exit at a moments notice. Otherwise be prepared to get off the boat and call the charter company to come get the boat parts off the beach/reef.

If and when the weather changes the boats crowded into White Bay are trapped and cornered by the swell or wind that suddenly came roaring in:

I agree Storm Jib, White Bay is and should be a day mooring for charterers.
If you're on your own boat and decide to overnight it that's fine. M
Personally I would never overnight it there. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

I am not advocating for White Bay as an overnight anchorage. I have not done so in 25 years of sailing the BVIs. I am merely questioning the generalization that "most" charter companies have redlined White Bay.

The only charter company I know is Captains Compass. Which I believe who Jagman uses.

Interesting info. TMM did not redline it when we chartered last spring. But knowing what I know now we won't be overnighting there next month.

This is a very lame question... What is the difference between waves and north swell?

Most of what you get as far as waves are wind driven. Generally out of the East in the BVI. Wind driven waves are generally short duration and peaky making for a poor boat ride going into the wind.
The North swell common in the winter is a long duration deep wave that originates off the Eastern US. The swells roll all the way down to Caribbean. They are very comfortable to sail in even when large as they provide a nice smooth motion. They become a problem when they hit shallow water and become steeper faced or even breaking waves. Because they are moving large amounts of water they can work their way around and into anchorages that don't even face North.
You can have a north swell on a otherwise perfectly calm day. You can also have a strong east wind that will produce the wind chop 90 degrees to the swell.
Since the swell originates far away the forecasting is very accurate. It's almost down to the hour when they will begin and end . There is no reason to be surprised. I often change my itinerary based on the swell forecast. You don't want to be overnighting in CDB or White Bay with a swell predicted.
G