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Greenhorn.......you know what they say about 'safety in numbers'...even if it's only '4'! I think it's safe to say there is courage in numbers as well.

Somebody knows about topless in Avon?

If you are asking about topless in Avon, NC, it is not a known topless area, depends on the time of year and what part you are in as to whether or not you can get away with it, but it is not legal.

Are you sure it's not legal? Topless is legal in many more jurisdictions than people think. In NC, the Indecent Exposure statue is 14-190.9. Like many states, it uses the term "private parts" and in most states, courts have held that breasts are not "private parts".

Quoting from the NY case that overturned the law against being topless there:


Something is legal unless there is an explicit law making it illegal. It doesn't appear that it's illegal under state law in NC. Is there some local ordinance that makes it illegal there?

I am not aware of any ordinance against nudity on NC beaches; however, as a frequent traveler to the Outer Banks I am not aware of an CO beaches. Most of the beaches in Hatteras are national parks, not sure what the rules are there.

Sorry about the confusion: I was not responding to the queries about nude use, but topless use.

Speaking of which, apparently, today is "National Go Topless Protest Day" according to this organization.

Okay, so let me state that I am not aware of any topless beaches in the OBX either, not sure if it is legal in a National Park as most of the OBX is part of the National Park system. There are lot's of dunes (not as many as there used to be due to erosion) so if you wanted to be CO or just topless you should be able to find a place, but still not sure it is legal.

Why not? The only rules regarding clothing in National Parks that I'm aware of relate to Cape Cod National Seashore and one of the National Parks in Hawaii. Other than that, state (and possibly local) law controls.

You ask a lot of questions Richard! I don't know why not, you would have to stop a Ranger or Police Officer down there and ask. I am just letting you know from my experience in the area it is not "Known" as a CO or topless area.

I've said this before: the way our legal system works, something is legal unless there's some law making it illegal. There's absolutely no evidence that topless is illegal on any beach in NC. Given that, I wouldn't expect any "known" topless area any more than I'd expect there to be any "known" areas where purple polka-dot bikinis are accepted: both are accepted anywhere and asking a law enforcement officer where a woman could go topless would have the same legal significance as asking where one could wear a purple polka-dot bikini. In the absense of a law to the contrary (and I have looked for one and asked here numerous times), those two activities are exactly the same in the eyes of the law.

Topless women are like barefoot drivers: many people assume it's illegal when, in fact, it's usually not. See this FAQ entry for a debunking of the "barefoot driving is illegal" myth. As to topless, there indeed are some places where it's illegal (St. John's County in Florida is perhaps the most famous), but it's in far fewer places than most people think.

If you're going to go topless on a beach that's patrolled by rangers or other law enforcement, it's indeed not a bad idea to let them know what you plan to do if you don't see others doing it, but if they say it's illegal, ask for a reference to the statue making it so because a lot of law enforcement officers are as naive in this area as the general public about what's legal and illegal. (E.g., women keep getting paid tens of thousands of dollars in NYC for falsely being arrested for being topless.)

You'd think with all the coastline here in NC and a 12.5% county unemployment rate in February, the Brunswick County Commissioners would find something more productive to do than focus on a remote area at the end of Bird Island.

www.starnewsonline.com/article/20090406/ARTICLES/904069955

........Amen............
I wonder how that affects the SC side..............

Bird Island is not an option; nudity is no longer allowed and you will be ticketed. Whispering Pines in Ocean Isle, NC is the only nudist resort in the area. It is under new ownership and is "still a dump". It is very expensive for what they offer. Save your money and visit Caliente!

It IS legal to be topless at Topsail Beach and on Okracoke in the National Seashore.
The National Seashore area has a campground (also legal to be topless THERE!)and it is large enough that if you drive way up the beach, away from the fishermen, then you can be nude as long as you are ready to cover up quickly if needed! (sit on a wrap!)

I am a lifelong North Carolinian and those are the only places I am aware of on our entire coast.

Can you show any case law that supports that position? The relevant statue in NC is 14-190.9. Just reading paragraph (a), I'd agree with you because "private parts" normally does not include breasts. But then there's paragraph (b). Although likely added to protect the rights of a woman to breastfeed, it changes the interpretation of paragraph (a).

A standard principle of statutory contruction is that a "statute should be constructed so that effect is given to all of its provisions, so that no part will be inoperative" Hibbs v. Winn. If we interpret (a) as having the conventional meaning where "private parts" excludes breasts, then what effect does (b) have in that statute? Since it's presumed to have some effect, then "private parts" in (a) must therefore be read to include the breast.

Do you know anything about the legislative history or case law that would preclude interpreting 14-190.9(a) as making a women being topless illegal in NC? (For example, is there an ERA-type clause in the state constitution?) Otherwise, I'd say it most likely is illegal and thefore of course would therefore apply in any park (Federal or otherwise) or other location within the state.

But, having said all that, I want to remind people that when thinking about being topless or nude, although it's definitely valuable to know the law (or as much as one can about the law, since here a case may well be decided either way), it's much more important to know what's accepted than what's legal. Two examples from NY:

(1) It's unquestionably illegal to be nude at Lighthouse Beach, but it's so well-accepted that law enforcement from all levels (county, state, and federal) won't bother anybody who's nude there.

(2) It's unquestionably legal for a woman to be topless walking down the street in Manhattan. But it's not well accepted and a woman doing so shouldn't be surprised if the police speaks to her about it.

So if BlondieNC had said it was accepted to be topless in those areas, I couldn't disagree (or agree, for that matter: I don't have any information on that at all) and that might well be the more important issue. But it's nevertheless important to be careful when talking about the law.

No, I cannot cite the exact "top-free" laws for either location, but I believe it is specifically written into the local law at Topsail Beach...and I know that the Park Rangers at the National Seashore are told that top-free is legal under National Laws at the beach and at the campground and there are no local laws proscribing it...someone who was a Ranger there told me that.

I am NOT willing to go to jail to be topless...so I have paid attention to this issue here in NC and I have been topless in both areas with no repercussions.

Here is a link to an old "news" report about Topsail Beach from a paper in SOUTH Carolina (Gaffney):

http://www.gaffneyledger.com/news/2005/0520/Local_News/037.html

Not sure WHO this police chief is referring to as "perverted"...I expect is is US!!

I thought that the Federal Government left all clothing laws to State and Local Governments and that those laws do not apply on Federal Property. That's not to say that the National Park Service can't stop nude sunbathing by rule, but it does allow it to happen. So is it really illegal to be nude at Lighthouse? Or is it just allowed by the National Park Service because of custom, subject to change at their will?

Correct. The Superintendent could decide to enforce the law tomorrow if he so choses (which is, by the way, why it's important not to allow lewd behavior because that might cause him to make that choice).

As to your first sentence, I'm having trouble parsing it, so I don't know what you mean. I really ought to write a "Naturist Law 101" FAQ one day because there's so much confusion on these points.

Simply put, being on a National Park doesn't make you subject to less rules, but to more.

If I'm on the street in NYC, I'm subject to:

- Federal Law
- New York State statutes
- New York City minicipal ordinances

If I'm in an unincorporated part of New York State, I'm subject to just the first two (plus possibly any county ordinances). If I'm in a National Park in New York State, I'm subject to those two (Federal + NY State law) plus any general regulations that apply to National Parks and any specific regulations to that park (whether county laws would apply in that situation is very unclear legally, but isn't relevant to Lighthouse Beach, though it might be at Playalinda in Florida).

In the Fire Island National Seashore (similar to a National Park) that contains Lighthouse Beach, an activity is illegal if it is prohibited by any of the following:

- Federal Law
- New York State law
- general National Park regulations
- regulations specific to FINS

In the case of nudity, the first of these and the last two are silent. There is a law in New York State, however, specifically NY Penal Law Section 245.01, that prohibits nudity. Thefore, nudity is prohibited there.

To see the opposite situation, let's look at Cape Cod National Seashore in Massachusetts. There, we have the same four sources of law. Massachusetts doesn't have a clear law prohibiting nudity (Chapter 272, section 16 merely prohibits "open and gross lewdness or lscivious behavior"). However, there is a specific rule that applies to Cape Cod National Seashore, specifically 36 CFR 7.67(13)(e), which prohibits public nudity within that Seashore (see this page for copies of all those laws and regulations). So nudity is also prohibited there, but for an entirely different reason.

I guess what I was trying to say is that the Federal Govt. leaves all nudity laws to State and Local Govts. to enact. The Federal Govt. can enforce State and Local nudity laws if they so choose, but can allow nudity on Federal property because they don't enact those laws. They do make the park rules though and at anytime can enforce NYS law and say no more nudity. Under NYS law, we are illegal, but not under Federal law on Federal property unless they decide to enforce NYS law. I guess the point I'm trying to make is that we're not illegal until they say we are.

There's nothing special about nudity laws here! The Constitution leaves almost all criminal laws to the states. With very few exceptions, what makes robbery, rape, assualt, and similar crimes illegal are state laws. A piece of land being "Federal property" is no different than a piece of land being part of some city: neither affects the applicability of State criminal law within that land.

Nudity is illegal in New York State. Lighthouse Beach is in New York State. Therefore, nudity is illegal on Lighthouse Beach. It's that simple. If a New York State police officer (who does patrol the beach sometimes) sees somebody nude, that person can be arrested. Because they've been granted "concurrent jurisdiction", a Park Ranger can also make the arrest.

Now, it's certainly true that these people have decided not to enforce the law. But a decision not to enforce the law doesn't suddenly make that thing legal. Let's look at another example. Some beach regulars smoke pot. The rangers know this. Unless somebody walks up to the ranger with a joint in their mouth (yes, this actually happened!), they aren't going to enforce the drugs laws on the beach. Does that mean that drugs are now legal? Of course not!

Here's yet another example to show the difference. Let's suppose a new ranger transferred to working at Lighthouse Beach. He knows he's supposed to ignore the law against nudity, but let's suppose he's very much personally against nudity and decides to give a citation to every nude person he sees. He'll likely get reassigned (or even fired) pretty quickly for that action, but are the citations valid? Of course they are (though a prosecutor may nevertheless decide to dismiss the charges).

One would hope that if the law enforcement agencies decide to start enforcing the law, they'll let us know in advance. But there's absolutely no requirement they do so. And there's also no sort of estoppel in criminal law, so the fact that a law enforcement officer chose to ignore some violation of the law today creates no obligation for the officer to ignore the same violation tomorrow.

How do you get to Bird Island?
I read you can bike there from Sunset Beach. Do you ride on a trail or on the sand?
Is there a charge to park your car in Sunset?

Thanks

Since this post is nearly a week old and no one has answered, I'll try. But, be advised that my last visit was a couple of years ago before construction of the mega-bridge began.

Once you cross the old bridge into Sunset Beach, I've been able to find limited free parking along the road before you get to Main St. Across Main is the fishing pier and a parking area. I seem to remember a charge there but that may be a seasonal or even day of the week thing. Bird Island is, of course, to the right. If you follow Main all the way to the end, I think there are one or two free spots at the end of the road. Probably already taken and not worth it if you have a bike.

The ride/walk is along the beach. Every time I've been, the beach has been wide and the sand hard near the surf. But, here in NC, the tides can change dramatically with moon phases, weather, and the season of the year. So, YMMV. Remember, it was an island separated from Sunset by an inlet at low tide not that many years ago.

Good luck!

Havent been there ourselves but have heard friends say you can walk past Fort Fisher there near Carolina beach and theres lots of nude people out there. Not sure how far down the beach you need to go...Just go untill you see nakied people I guess

Just got back from my first visit in 14 years to Bird Island. It's no longer an island, but it's connected to Sunset Beach. During my four-hour visit, there were many walkers, some bicyclists and a few joggers who went all the way to the end at the rock jetty. Only about five people were nude, and they were discreet. It was almost impossible to go into the water nude with so many people around. A better option is taking the water taxi from the Blockade Runner at Wrightsville Beach for $20 and riding over to Masonboro Island. For the last two years, Pea Island has been a good spot, too.
<img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Wink.gif" alt="" />

Well, that explains my total inability to get in touch with them despite seeing references, links and phone numbers on numerous web sites. Supposedly they were associated with another resort of the same name in Vermont but their (again, supposedly) joint web site had nothing at all about the NC location. Published phone numbers get to only out of service recordings. Guess I can give up now. Whispering Pines and Jasmine Trails are both in southern NC. What should I know about each of them before going to visit?

It's good know that there are others out there. Me and my wife go to n top sail and take the truck on the beach. She allways takes here top off. If it is really empty we will both go nude.....never had aproblem. If you see us out there please feel free to stop by. We have been doing this for years. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Banana.gif" alt="" />

Harley,
When you say North Topsail, do you mean West Onslow Beach? I haven't been there in about 12 years, but there are condos and a hotel at the north end, if memory serves.

I have no problem with people being nude if they are discreet. But sometimes on weekends there are many people out there (on Bird Island) that are acting just plain creepy. If nudists want to keep the complaints down and the cops away, then try to be discreet. If it is a good thing then don't ruin it.

And no, I'm not a prude or homophobic, but I don't need to see a guy standing on top of a dune bith binoculars (Naked) looking around for other naked dudes.

Huhm, how do you know he's looking for other naked dudes with the binocs???

OK, I don't know that. Maybe they are bird watching? I'm just asking them to be discreet as the beach is *not* C/O.

Agreed, I would think bird watching would be a better guess..

Bird Island is not a Island due to storms years ago.But if you park at the Sunset Beach pier and ride your bike south or to the right, pier at your back and go.One mile or so watch the four wheeler tracks in the sand. They patrol the Sunset Beach City limits then turn around, unless they have a complaint. But if your outside that area your in a good spot i can't say safe because its not legal. But you can see people from along ways off. And in the summertime the heat waves make it difficult to see if a person is nude. Stay out of the dunes thats trespassing and another ticket.If your on the beach or in the water you can see and have warning. If you enter the water before walkers get to you they did'nt see anything. If you have a speedo on when you exit the water when people are there your covered. Use a small fannypak.Bring water plenty of sunscreen one can that sprays for your back.Maybe a cabana, and a snack. You can ride a bike here at low tide if you stay to long you will have to push it back. Becareful of lightning from sudden storms. If you see a storm coming leave in a hurry.

It's always a good idea to stay out of the dunes anywhere on the shore in the east. Dunes are very fragile ecosystems and often they are the only thing holding the beach in place.

I've seen posts here (and elsewhere) that say the dunes are a nice place for couples to go for privacy. Not only is that bad for the dunes but, if you're caught by a law enforcement officer you will be in a world of trouble and likely destroy what might have been a topfree or clothing free beach for all time. It's simply not worth the risk.

There are precious few free beaches and no one should do anything to risk their closure.

Good info. Would just like to add that the facts regarding the state laws which govern Bird Island. The North Carolina code does not make illegal "nudity", but rather exposure of "private parts". The state supreme court ruled in a recent case that buttocks are not considered private parts, only the genitals. So thong and g-string swimwear is legal on Bird Island and is a good way to stay legal but yet be as close to nude as possible. Sunset Beach, which is next to Bird Island, has additional local ordinances prohibiting exposure of the buttocks, breasts, etc. However the local ordinances don't apply to the state owned Bird Island.

I would agree that thongs clearly are legal on Bird Island, but the legal issue is not quite as clear as you suggest (they never are - that's how lawyers make a living after all) and I would hesitate to say as clearly that "g-strings" are "legal" without being sure what is meant by "g-string" in a particular case. Just the "buttocks" are OK - but you have to be careful about collateral exposure. State v Fly is the key NC Supreme Court decision from 1998 (348 NC 556, 501 SE2d 656 for the inquiring minds out there) (not sure 1998 qualifies as "recent" but I am unaware of more recent SCt decision that defines "private parts" for 14-190.9)(BTW: Fly was convicted). From the opinion: "We have already concluded that the phrase "private parts" includes the external organs of sex and excretion."

My friends in Sunset tell me that apart from any "law" you would have to be acting like a jerk to get arrested for your state of dress on Bird.

I'd send a bill but I am not licensed in North Carolina.

Yes, you're correct about needing to watch for collateral exposure, however that applies to any swimsuit not just g-strings. For example, see-through boxer trunks could be deemed illegal if the genitals are plainly visible.

Regarding g-strings, the chief justice in the case you site made it abundantly clear regarding the legality of g-strings and thongs under North Carolina statutes. The language from page 3 is below. Here's the link:
http://academic.cengage.com/resource_uploads/downloads/0534619509_37754.pdf

BTW, the county police passed by 4 times last weekend on Bird Island, each time I was wearing a g-string. He didn't say anything to me but gave a warning to a woman who he spotted topless.
--------------------
"We have already concluded that the phrase “private parts” includes the external organs of sex and excretion. On the facts of this case, it is unnecessary for us to determine what, if any, other parts of the female or male anatomy may be included within the phrase “private parts,” as used in N.C.G.S. § 14-190.9, in light of the legislature’s expressed preference for an “expansive” interpretation. However, given the posture of this case, we think it wise to note our agreement with the conclusion of the majority below that buttocks are not private parts within the meaning of the statute. To hold that buttocks are private parts would make criminals of all North Carolinians who appear in public wearing “thong” or “g-string” bikinis or other such skimpy attire during our torrid summer months. Our beaches, lakes, and resort areas are often teeming with such scantily clad vacationers. We simply do not believe that our legislature sought to discourage a practice so commonly engaged in by so many of our people when it enacted N.C.G.S. § 14-190.9. To make such attire criminal by an overly expansive reading of the term “private parts” was not, we are convinced, the intent of our legislature. The difference, however, between defendant’s conduct and someone wearing a bikini is that the former is a clear-cut violation of recognized boundaries of decency, which the statute was intended to address, whereas the latter is a matter of taste, which we do not believe our legislators intended to make criminal."

you might want to try a place called Bare Island NC. It's not named that because it's c/o...but rather because of the fact it really is pretty "bare". It's in the Swansboro/Jacksonville area and you need to catch a fairy to it. Once there, the only amenities are a beach house with limited facilites. You can walk for miles and not see a soul...just lots of sand and dunes. Been a few times and have maybe seen 1 or 2 patrols drive by...for the most part..you're on your own...specially if you miss the fairy back to the mainland. Keep that in mind if you go there...if you walk a few miles down the beach...you really are alone so if there are any emerginces you're kinda stuck. But,...plenty of dunes right on the beach where you can "hide" and do as you wish. Hope this helps somewhat...
PS: Carolina beach is definetly NOT clothing Optional. Sorry

Headed to Hatteras for a week starting Oct 9.
so as I read all of the above if we go far enough south we might find some secluded areas for clothing optional sunning (presuming that the weather is even suitable for wearing less than jeans, wind breaker and mittens)

The house we have has its own private pool and hot tub. How do the nudity laws work down there with respect to nudity in and around your own pool areaÉ

Thanks

NC is a socially conservative state! If the pool and tub are screened from public view, you are OK. Otherwise wait until after dark!
If you have a 4X4, take the ferry to Okracoke and drive down the beach until you are out of view of other people and have fun. Dear wife and I have spent many a happy day skinny dipping on Okracoke. Just keep an eye open for other people driving by in their 4X4. Weekdays are the least traveled.

Oops that was me talking about Okracoke. I forgot to log in. As my name implies, I am a resident of the Great North State. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/duh.gif" alt="" />