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I have chartered 3 times and have never attended the chart briefing .
I have also always included annegada on my trips .
I am just wondering is a briefing required on other charters.
I told the girl when she Said I should attend the briefing. Did the islands move ?

I know I was a smart [censored] but I always stay the night before , do the boat brief and head out , I don't want unnecessary nonsense jolding us up .
Just wondering what the feeling is in the community on chart briefings for repeat charterers

It has been a long time since I chartered from The Moorings. I believe they have a cookie-cutter process for ALL including "required" chart briefing. I believe most of the other smaller companies (TMM &CYOA) are able to more personalize the process. For a multi-time charter, it may be " More mooring boys installed here. This restaurant has closed for renovations. Fuel prices seem best here and here recently".
I doubt missing "required" briefing would change your liability... Run aground even in "non-redline" area is still your fault.

First off welcome to TTOL.

I am not sure where to start on this one. I do not have your sailing resume in front of me so I will try to tread lightly. I am part of the management team at CYOA. I have been working there for the better part of nine years. I have done literally hundreds of briefings. I also have been boating my entire adult life. I am fifty so you can figure out that math. I also have owned six different boats personally. There are anchorages in the BVI's that I still have not been to. Every week we send out boats and our briefers have constantly updated local knowledge. From missing markers, changes in moorings or anchorages, to information about entertainment.

I do not know how long a Moorings Chart briefing takes but I am sure it is not that long. Frankly if you are not willing to invest an hour or two of your time in the briefing process so that they can throw you the keys to someones pride and joy you shouldn't be chartering.

We all love the fun stuff, but it is serious business operating a complex, large and very expensive boat in unfamiliar waters. If you seriously think after three trips, twenty one whole days in these waters and likely a year or two between trips you have "local" knowledge you are either a phenomenally talented sailor or you haven't had enough experience to understand the ramifications when things do not go the right way. You come here to slow down and relax. Start that process with your time on the dock. Take a deep breath, look around, check the boat learn from the briefer and stay safe. That is time well spent the beach bar will still be there when you arrive.

well said... I would be very nervous about having my boat go out with someone who didn't take advantage of all the available advice and local knowledge on offer... I like the individual touch that TMM offers to make sure that happens every time.

Great answer, CaptainJay! <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Clapping.gif" alt="" />

You've never done a chart briefing?

Most companies at least require it the first time and then if you are there often enough, they don't require you do it again. It never hurts to do it though as you never know what new information you might get.

Hello Everyone,

For the record Captain Jay's personal remarks here actually reflect the firm policy of CYOA. With new yachts running upwards of $700k and systems far more complex than ever we have a responsibility to every boat owner to take every reasonable step to ensure that every client chartering their personal property is well briefed and capable in skill and temperament.

John Jacob

Captain Jay's answer is excellent. After decades of chartering and sailing on six continents I certainly know everything. Over the years we have learned to never rush from the dock. It defeats the purpose of most vacations. It can also be very stressful for many around you. With us the boat never moves until everyone is ready. That starts the first day and continues until the boat must move to return it. I will confess I do not always sit through the chart briefing myself. Someone, usually two, on the crew always does. Things do change in the BVI and it is impossible to recall and know everything. I highly doubt your have taken the time to acquire, read, and update all the charts using the Admiralty Notice to Mariners and the USCG equivalent for the USVI. The list of possibilities are endless. Including weather and storm procedures this time of year. In my opinion the crew should be represented by a good student and note taker in that room. With the Moorings I expect that is where you will be able to get the releases signed go to Anegada.

Stuff to do in a relaxed manner while others enjoy the knowledge transfer of the briefing. Truly make sure you know where everything is on the boat, truly make sure there are no airlocks and the water tanks are completely filled, make sure the the dinghy is easy to start for the least physical member of the crew. Check-Out is really for us the charter to inspect the boat. Make sure that is completed and everything stored before you consider leaving the dock. All stuff we learned along the way and stuff we skipped when I was 20ish leading my third charter.

There is another long thread here on someone who was unhappy with her entire charter experience. I do not know her and I was not there. But, I highly suspect demonstrating attitudes like this on the dock led to her teams demise.

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I told the girl when she Said I should attend the briefing. Did the islands move ?

That is just +/- 25 words and I do not know you. But the tone and word selection screams that you do not know how to succeed on Tortola or anywhere across the Carribean. Maybe someone else can help us here with the best practices to gain favor and cooperation with any unique needs on the charter boat docks. Note: I consider the publicly declared position that I am too good for a chart briefing a unique need.

Before you flame me in rage. Consider whatever you do for a profession. How good where you at it the third time? What have you learned since then.

I suggest you change your first day focus to not leaving the dock until everyone in the crew, the boat, and the staff there to support you in the sun is ready. Take a few minutes in the shade of the bimini to chuckle at the circus clowns trying to rush themselves and crew away from the dock. Don't be that clown this time.

The Moorings chart briefings are relatively pro forma PowerPoint type presentations and they don't take all that long. I believe their policy is that you must attend a briefing, but, I've never seen them tale a roll call. That said, I think it's fairly disrespectful to purposefully blow off the briefing just because you can.

I disagree that it's disrespectful to blow off the chart briefing. I sat through the same old Moorings video tape several times back in the nineties. No new information ever presented. Complete waste of time unless it was your first trip. With the Moorings the briefing is not mandatory. Have not attended in the past 20 trips. We always survive and return the boat in at least as good condition as it was when we left the dock.

Do you really want to comment on something you have not attended in 20 years?

I just got back a few days ago. Chartered a 43pc from Moorings for the first time as captain. I couldn't believe how easy the process was. We did the sleep aboard so I could become familiar with the boat. When I arrived it was around 6pm. I asked about the chart briefing and got kind of a strange look like they didn't have one scheduled. I wanted to get it over with that night as I thought that was part of the value and purpose of the sleep aboard. I was told I didn't have to attend if I didn't want to! I mentioned that I took it online through my NauticEd course 4 times and they said "oh then you're good". I mainly wanted it for the weather updates. Everything was shockingly simple. Few forms to initial, no test questions on check out, etc. I would have welcomed a more thorough process but just figured that's the way it's done. We had a great week and made it back without a scratch even in some very heavy winds late in the week. I did make two bad decisions and I'm thankful everything worked out. First, I overnighted two nights in White Bay on Jost. The second night had some swells that kept most of us awake throughout the night. For all I know they were very minimal but I really had nothing to compare them too. I know many here have talked about them getting pretty dangerous. I just don't know where we fell on that scale. Second, with the advice of a couple of very well respected people on this site, I took the pass between Beef Is. airport and Little Camanoe. I kept thinking it was one of the no go zones but it was recommended I go that way. When i came to the cardinal marker my crew of airline pilots thought I should go to the left of it. Thankfully, I had printed a reference diagram of the markers and determined rather last minute I should stay to the right of it!! As we passed, I saw the huge rock just under the surface. Other than that the passage was easy.

Many have probably heard this humor but the question was asked in a chart briefing "Who is here for their first time?" Half of the room raised their hands. The charter company then replied "Okay we don't have to worry about you folks. It's the return charters that we need to keep an eye on.".

I think there are two events going on here which may be intertwined which may be resulting in vast differences of opinion.

I have not sailed with Moorings but I believe it's the same set up as I've experienced at Sunsail - the boat briefing and the chart briefing are individual events. The chart briefing is in a room with some powerpoint slides and all the charter guests leaving that day are herded in for the same presentation. It's dull and not very informative IMHO but I would certainly not blow it off especially since I think it takes about 20 minutes. I wonder about the liability of damaging the boat (or heaven forbid a person) due to lacking some key piece of information that was presented at the chart briefing. I just seem to recall a statement in one of the forms that says something like you're not insured if you do something stupid. Is lack of attendance at the chart briefing one of these exclusionary events? The second briefing is the boat briefing which is on your boat. I would definitely not skip that.

I have also chartered at CYOA where the boat briefing and chart briefing are bundled together into a single personalized event on the boat you are taking out. CYOA will not allow you to miss this nor should you want to. The chart briefing on this combined event is very much personalized. If they have not seen you before you will get the full and detailed brief. After sailing a few times with them you will get the same briefing but a little quicker with perhaps less detail (you nod your head a lot and mumble affirmative sounds to speed up the person giving your brief). Independent of how many times you have chartered with them, this is your opportunity to ask about things that might have changed and suck out whatever local knowledge you are smart enough to ask about.

I now own a boat managed by CYOA. And guess what? I will have both a boat and chart briefing before leaving the dock. I suppose I could insist and blow this off but why would I? It's my opportunity to spend a few minutes with the people that know both the boat and the area a whole lot better than I do. What a treasure trove of information, wisdom, and knowledge. Maybe I can sign up for two briefings <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Thumbsup.gif" alt="" />

So it has been pointed out that some are video briefings , dated many years ago, perhaps online briefings of unknown time frame... Neither of which allows for interactive briefing (i.e. Questions and answers).
Others are interactive, up-to-date, and valuable.
Can't blame those who have a poor briefing (rating the value as "none") would choose on next trip to skip it. However, for these who have found "useless chart briefings" to consider the potential value when presented by someone like CaptainJay.

Schwendy got lucky missing that rock in what I believe is a "redlined" area. Also, during briefing I would expect a strong warning about overnighting in White Bay , JVD... I believe that is in the Cruising Guides as well (Probably warning about the area between Little Camanoe and Beef Island as well).

I hope if chartering my new yacht(Sea Tiger), you will get a VALUABLE briefing. If you find it worthless, I hope you will give me feedback. Hopefully, you will find it valuable and I will not have to collect anything from my Insurer, because you will anchor in Little Harbor or Great Harbor (JVD) and will take the cut between Little Camanoe and Big Camanoe.

It is disappointing to read about other's experiences with poor chart briefings. A good chart briefing can be extremely helpful and a valuable use of time. I have chartered with Moorings in BVI, Croatia, and French Polynesia. I will say that the briefings in Croatia and FP were much more thorough and valuable than the BVI briefing.

But when done correctly, a good briefing can answer many of the questions posted on this site with up to date information. In addition to navigation questions, other questions like: "Do you know of any quiet anchorages that we should visit?" Or, "Are there new restaurants that we should try?" can be part of a good briefing. Maybe as paying customers we need to demand better chart briefings...

My one experience with Sunsail was the same as agrimsrund described. The presenter and the slides didn't redline anything. He even said if you take the shortcut into Gorda Sound you shouldn't have any problem with a cat but you might with a deep draft mono?!!! After I left the briefing I thought yeah he can be casual and say anything but if I'm breaking a rule and something happens, I'm screwed!

I much prefer an individual chart briefing, they usually have some idea of how familiar you are with the cruising area/experience level and what your plans are - it's just a more efficient way for me to get the info I need.

Yes, because I have been told by others that content of the briefing has not changed much.

The Moorings used to send the Scott Virgin Islands Cruising Guide and a chart with the contract package. 7-8 years ago they stopped sending the Cruising Guide. The package I received for our trip in November did not include a chart. It also did not include the chart briefing schedule as it did in the past. When were down last December we were not told about the chart briefing at the customer service check in. We were pressured to rent a cell phone though.
As a long time Moorings customer there has been a noticeable change in the amount of information they are imparting to charterers. I attribute this to their growth and the desire to get boats in and out quickly. They still offer the chart briefing but you have to search it out.
I do want to distinguish the chart briefing from the boat checkout which is mandatory and informative.

I have chartered many times over the years and, even when returning to the same area, not only have I always attended the chart briefing but bring along my first mate and another person - all taking notes and making notations on a chart. The only time I have been disappointed was with Sunsail in Belize. We REALLY wanted a good chart brief for these unknown (to us) waters and islands but got some person from the office who just turned on the powerpoint presentation and who had never been out in the islands and knew nothing to add to the boiler-plate presentation. We actually asked if there was someone available with knowledge of our sailing area, and there was not!

But we did find our way around and had a good time - great place for sailing without having to race for a spot to spend the night.

This is exactly how the boat/chart briefings are at TMM - one on one, on the boat. We love the personalized and individual attention at TMM.

I'm sure my decisions and recent experience will be judged in many different ways but I did the best I could. I was aware of the area being risky. I only chose that route because of weather and the fact that two locals, well known on this board, with vast experience told me to go that way and just take it slow. It really isn't a big deal there with the exception of the cardinal marker and the reef which is clearly visible. Funny thing, there was a Mooring's sailing school mono in that cut with me! I was literally sick with stress/nerves before this trip. I studied my [email]A@#[/email] off for months. I brought with me, a new paper chart, Navionics on my iPad, anchor alarm on my phone, a handheld radio, the Cruising Guide, the Virgin Anchorages photo book and my own notes/diagrams. I knew how to read the cardinal marker but being able to verify it with my own printed diagram was everything! I'm almost 50 yrs. old. This trip had been a dream for a long time. Everyone had their first time at some point and probably made at least one questionable decision. I soak up advice and constructive criticism. I'm here to learn and improve. Bashing, attitudes or elitism don't even penetrate my thick skull. I learned quickly in the military to brush that stuff off.

I had a boat with TMM for many years. They take safety for charterers and their client's boats seriously. For years Sam, an interesting an fun Brit gave most of the briefings. He took it very seriously but was kind and funny. I've read a few disparaging posts here about his thorough breifings. The guy knew quite rightly some of the most dangerous clients were those that thought they knew it all. That is true in many venues of life. They would also do checkout sails that many do not. I felt better about putting a boat there and watching how they treated other charter owners boats.

I was there when Sam said that to Saildoggie. He was not a happy camper, shortly after he became a Voyage guy. He is more than thorough, for an experienced sailor, to the point of obnoxious.

Yes Schwendy, on certain topics around here you'll get the bashing, attitudes and elitism. Funny thing is I don't think I've ever read a long term cruiser's blog, many circumnavigators, where they didn't make fun of us charterers (or out right fear us) when they sailed thru the popular charter areas. I also don't think I've read of many of them that still didn't make mistakes and had more to learn.

Anyway, I'm glad you have fulfilled a long term dream - the same dream I had. Now that you're in the fraternity it just gets better. I've had a blast chartering in several different areas and I hope you do too!

I chartered with Moorings this summer and did do the briefing. There was some decent local info though it was basically just a powerpoint/ video slide show. I'll sit through it again when I go the next time, but 90% was info I had already researched or knew how to do.

The only thing that I was annoyed at was when I asked the Moorings Representative at the desk if I could go to the evening briefing he told me I had to do the morning briefing since I was starting in the morning. I should have just done the evening briefing because we rushed to get the food shopping done in the morning so I could make the briefing. Turns out I could have gone to any of the briefings according to the Moorings headquarters.

I cringed a bit when I read your post. I don't want too sound to critical especially since you have the right attitude and realize you made mistakes. For the benefit of others it's worth mentioning a few things often repeated here.
On the subject of White Bay you should only overnight there with a perfect forecast. That happens less then 10% of the time. You should never overnight there without a updated forecast.
On sailing in areas that are red zoned there are always reasons that they were set up. The passage the poster took can be safely transited with the correct GPS waypoints. If you don't follow the exact right route then you are playing Russian roulette. There are several areas that will catch even a cat. The real question is why anyone would go that route when the recommended route is far more scenic and maybe 10 minutes longer. What is 10 minutes on charter verses a ruined week?
G

In the Defence of the OP. I will say that, I attended the chart briefing as a first time charter with Moorings in May of this year. I was not what I expected. It is not really a chart briefing but an overview of the different islands anchorages. Do's and do not's. It felt more like a presentation of their cruising guide that they send you. If I had not spent so much time researching on this forum I would have found it useful but unfortunately it was a little boring and after a long day's travel almost a waste of time. EXCEPT FOR the following instruction: when heading for Guana island from Marina Kay.. do not go through the north side of beef island. Only go through the Little- Great Camanoe channel which feels a little counter intuitive since the channel is so narrow. That is the one instruction that I missed through all my research.

So there you go, ended up being worth it. 20 minutes of my time potentially saving a $700k boat and me potential insolvency....

Thank you beerMe for those comments! Also, thank you GeorgeC1. I appreciate your constructive criticism! I wouldn't say my decision to go past Beef was a "mistake" since I chose to do it based on advice and studying the passage. I will admit it was a poor decision. I won't do it again. This was a learning experience and I know I'll be better next time. I welcome some of the veterans to admit some of their mistakes or bad decisions. Jost as far as I know from my time there and all the time spent on this board, was fine. I did check weather constantly and ask advice while there. If I had to rank that decision with 10 being best I'd say I was at a 7. I did make the decision to move to Great Harbor the following day which was a good move. I saw two monos with blown out sails that week. I saw several cats struggle with mooring balls, one spent an hour trying to anchor and one had to dive for their hook. I saw one of the Puerto Rican navy boats catch a super yachts dingy line and almost sink it in White Bay. I got compliments from the Mooring guys on return for how clean and nice the boat was on return. For a first timer, not bad if I do say so myself.