TravelTalkOnline Forums Travel and Vacation Forums St. Maarten - St. Martin Nudity on Orient Beach

Club Orient just posted this on their Club Orient Facebook Page last night...
ANNOUNCING THE NEXT INSTALLMENT OF "ASK CLUB ORIENT"
For the latest edition of Ask Club Orient, we have decided to focus on a topic that often gets a lot of attention at our resort: The Beach!

At Club Orient, we are very fortunate to be situated directly on Orient Beach, a spectacular stretch of tropical paradise that is consistently rated as one of the best beaches the world, nude or otherwise. Due to its unique nature, however, we get a wide variety of questions and comments about our beach, and some of the most frequent ones include:
• Why can’t you make the Club Orient section of Orient Beach for nudists only?
• Why can’t you stop outsiders, i.e., cruise ship people, from walking the beach, staring and/or taking photos?
• What can Club Orient security do about this?
• Is it OK to walk past Pedro’s nude if you do it before 8:00 a.m.?
• Why doesn’t the government just make nudity legal on all of Orient Beach? The whole island?
• I heard that nudity is OK on Nettle Baie, Baie Rouge etc. I saw nude people there and I went nude and no one bothered me, so it must be true, right?

To begin with, public nudity is unfortunately illegal everywhere, including on the Dutch and French sides of St. Martin. Yes, that includes ALL of Orient Beach. Surprised? We thought you might be. So how does Club Orient get away with it? Because for about 30 years, Club Orient has had an agreement with the Collectivité, which says it will “tolerate“ the clothing optional beach in front of Club Orient resort. Nowhere else on the island has that agreement! Having said that, all of Orient Beach is a public beach and other than the clothing optional provision, we are required by law to allow public access to the beach by anyone – clothed or not. There are no private beaches in France, just as there aren’t in the U.S. or Canada, so we cannot prevent outsiders from walking onto our beach.

We have had many conversations with various government officials about the possibility of designating our section of Orient Beach as a nudist-only beach. However, they maintain that, by giving us clothing optional status on the best section of the best beach on St. Martin, they have more than accommodated the visiting naturists. That’s a tough point to argue. Think about it. How many legal nude beaches are there in the whole Caribbean? Outside of Jamaica, very, very few. We think the government of St. Martin should be applauded for their quite positive position in this matter, and we should be happy that we’re allowed to continue this freedom.

So, what about walking down past Pedro’s nude? Yes, you could probably get away with it many times without a problem. But, that’s like saying, “I know the speed limit is 65 mph, but I’ve never gotten a ticket doing 75, especially after 10:00am.” Is that what you’d tell the judge? We didn’t think so, yet we hear this rationale often. Club Orient will never attempt to tell you what to wear (or not wear) anywhere you go. That’s your business, of course. However, we can tell what the law is on St. Martin.

Unfortunately, some guests are upset when they are told what the law is on the island. They point out (correctly) that many businesses welcome them and tell them not to worry. The problem is that there are now thousands of people living in and around Orient Village who not only haven’t discovered the joys of naturism, but actually are disturbed by it. They, like citizens everywhere else in the world, call their government officials, demanding they take action about the situation. Would all of your neighbors at home be okay with you and your guests in your front yard naked on a Sunday afternoon? The same thing happens here. We regularly get visits from the Gendarmes, telling us that our guests are breaking the law and to please ask them to obey the laws of the country, in which they are a guest. We apologize and tell them that we have posted information in the room books and have explained that it is prohibited. [color:"red"]If we want to continue to enjoy our freedom to be nude on Orient Beach, we suggest not pushing the limits of the law, lest we have them taken away.
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Regarding cameras on the beach, it was a much easier problem to control years ago than it is now, due to the proliferation of cell phone cameras. We often have six or seven cruise ships in port and literally thousands of people visiting each day, which makes this problem very challenging.

I should first clear up a common misconception that taking photos anywhere you want is a “right.” Yes, Orient Beach is a public beach but it is illegal in France to take anyone’s picture anywhere, without permission, clothed or unclothed. So, if anyone who is a photo bug and non-nudist is reading this, please don’t attempt to give me a definition of what the law is in your country about taking photos of people in public. The French government does not care what the law is in your county.

Our security team works hard to enforce the ban on photography and they do an excellent job. However, they cannot be everywhere at once. They try to stay visible, especially on busy cruise ship days, but they have to perform multiple tasks at Club Orient. We have 8.5 hectares to watch over and occasionally other problems arise which need urgent attention. It is a very challenging job and we’re very proud of the work they do on a daily basis, under sometimes trying conditions.

All of our guards are required to undergo a great deal of varied types of training by the government, before being certified. The government subjects them to surprise drills and can fine the resort or even pull a guard’s certification if an emergency procedure is not handled properly. In addition, most of our guards are tri-lingual and can do everything from perform CPR to help a lost child find their parents on a crowded beach, to remove a drunken visitor, without resorting to force..all the while smiling and telling you to have a nice day!

Lastly, some visitors ask why they can’t just put their own chair wherever they like, since it’s a public beach? The answer is Club Orient, like every other beach business on Orient Beach and many other beaches as well, has concessionary rights to the beach. This is how we and other businesses are protected from just anyone showing up and starting to rent chairs or sell souvenirs or drinks. Those of you who have been on public beaches in Mexico with the steady stream of vendors, know what we are talking about – and we don’t think you want that type of atmosphere here.

So in summary, in order to keep Club Orient and Orient Beach one of the most sought-after naturist destinations in the world, we have to live with a few inconveniences – but trust us, we are doing our very best to protect your rights to be nude and natural here, and to continue to provide you with the best naturist experience anywhere!

Thank you so much for posting that!! Most of that I already knew, but GREAT information!

Thank you Modi.

This is exactly what we have been trying to say for years. I always knew certain individuals were pushing the limits & disregarding the law.

Sadly, times change, Orient is no longer the long stretch of beach where people can dine, walk & be nude.

And I have also been saying for years, what would your neighbors think or your family think if you walked around your property nude. We are lucky we can but not on Orient these days.... <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/Grin.gif" alt="" />

Does anyone have Stephen Payne's email address? I would like to ask his permission to copy and paste that info into the FAQ here.

Hi. I have made this post it's own thread, to give it more visibility.

I disscussed this with the head of toruism at Sandy Ground, St Martin back in 2004.

I asked if I can go nude anywhere?

His reply: "The naturism label requires from the nudist not to offend by their nudity.
Most nudists associations work at identifying the areas where naturists can go nude without chocking anyone. Nudity in private clubs and homes is legal. Consequently, all naturists clubs and centers are legal. You usually do not need to be concerned with the law if your nudity is practiced within a private location such as a club."

I asked if there are different types of beaches?

He replied - "Among the naturist or nudist community, there are indeed three (3) different types of beaches:

1. The authorized beaches: they guarantee a practice of naturism under the covering of a municipality and are generally controlled and managed by a club or some sort of vacation centre.

2. The tolerated beaches: These are beaches where the practice of naturism is established for a number of years without having ever reproved by local authorities or administration.

3. The wild beaches: On such beaches one is aware of the frequentation, but it is not necessarily authorized. The practice of naturism or nudism can be sanctioned by a report."

12 years ago there wasn't as much development on the island as there is now. Wonder what he would say now.

Probably the same thing as he did not specifically mention any beaches by name.

If there is a list, seems it's likely to have changed over the years - agree.

Seems to me that Club Orient would be covered under item 1 above.

I have to think nothing is covered under #1...

In that meticulously composed Club Orient post, in the very first paragraph after the bulleted list, they CLEARLY state that nudity at the Club Orient part of Orient Beach is merely "tolerated" under what is now a 30 year agreement between them and the Collectivité.

So if Club Orient's Beach nude use is "tolerated" and not "authorized" - then what place on this island is nude use authorized... I can think of none.

I think the Tourism fellow from Sandy Ground was maybe just dancing around a question he did not possess the full knowledge to answer.

..or perhaps the answer to the question was different in 2004. I think that the Club Orient info is very clear, as to the current state of things.

That was a great posting. Even though we've been going to SXM and Club Orient for 15 years I learned a thing or two. Thanks Modi

Thank you, Modi, for bringing this to light, and thanks, too, to Carol, for making it a topic all its own.

It pretty much says it all and answers all the usual questions, particularly the words highlighted in bold and red.

As much as we sometimes want things to stay the same, time marches on and things change. What was a remote and unpeopled beach forty years ago is now a Mecca for all who come to the island.

The onus is on all of us to be respectful of this post and of other beach-goers, visitors and residents alike, giving no reason for the island fathers to take a harder stand. Remember, pushing the envelope too hard or too far could ultimately end up in the revocation of all those agreements with the collective. <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.traveltalkonline.com/forums/images/graemlins/handshake.gif" alt="" />

Amen Pat, We certainly gained a new perspective from it.

At the same time that the no nudity signs went up at Pedro's and various other beaches on the French side. The exception was a sign on Le Galion beach saying that nudity was permitted there. I knew no one would believe me so I had a picture of me taken next to it. I can't find the photo now. The sign stated the same local ordinance number as the one that prohibited nudity in the other areas. Remember, Le Galion is only the small beach portion between Orient Beach and Coconut Grove on Baie de l'Emboucheure which goes almost to Coralita. Check your map of the island if you can't visualize it.

Here's my shot of the sign.


(click)

Looks like a date of September, 2007.

gary

There is now a sign that prohibits nudity at Galion.

Great post. It is really important to remember that most of us are guest in this country.

I believe that Nudity is permitted on the Club O beach for one reason: it makes economic sense. The beach is a huge tourism draw and the collective knows this and has a vested interest in protecting it. As long there remains high level of demand for the naturalist beach experience and limited number of beaches where one can relax and swim nude, Orient will thrive and the government will continue to support it for the economic gains. For those of us who want to see nudity expanded we can do our part by promoting welcoming, relaxing and fun environment. I know that the first time we ventured on to the beach in front of Pedro’s the very first people we encountered were exhibitionists or militant nudist. There was nothing “natural” about their behavior! Very creepy. I was ready to turn around, but fortunately my wife pulled me down the beach where we found the environment that we had hoped we would find when booked our St. Martin vacation. We continue to come back year after year because of this positive environment.

Our sentiments exactly. Thanks.